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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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 Posted: 24-Sep-2008 04:37 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | I should stop comparing the Cataphract to the Orion or Warhammer, but it's hard not to do so. |
Why? I think it does not need to be afraid of comparison to either design!
Yes, the Orion is a brick. As I explained in my little piece on the Orion, it carries the highest armour ratio of all 3025 'Mechs. So any 'Mech compared to it in terms of protection is going to look suboptimal.
The Warhammer? I prefer the Cataphract in most situations. IMO, the Warhammer is clearly superior at close ranges (assuming we are talking about the CTF-1X; the -2X? Different story). Even at longer ranges, the Warhammer isn't necessarily much better - though it carries twice the amount of PPC-goodness, it is less heat efficient to the point of the Cataphract quickly being able to close the 3-hex gap for its firepower to become even again.
But of course you are right, the Cataphract is designed for medium range combat. At which stage the -2X comes fully into its own. But it's never bad to have a missile boat around when using the Cataphract as your force's anchor.
| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Of the other heavies only the Archer, Black Knight, Bombardier, Dragon, Ostsol, Ostroc and Thunderbolt come to mind as having hands... How many of those are actually regularly seen in Liao service? |
Ok, I'll concede that point on the Ostsol, Dragon, Bombardier and Black Knight. But from my reading of the 3025-era stuff, I always got the impression that Liao had its share of Ostrocs (rare in the first place) and Thunderbolts (not so rare). And the Archer, while never featuring predominantly in Liao forces, was built in such obscene numbers, that even House Liao is sure to field a fair number.
That is not to distract from the Cataphract's general usefulness, though, so thanks for pointing that out!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2008 04:39 Post subject: Re: 3025 'mechs and their variants reviewed by categories |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | I won't try to force you to write a little more about the T-Bolt, although I'd certainly like to.
I have some different thingie for you to play... a not-so-popular machine and one of the reputed oddballs of the 3025 TRO... the Vulcan. |
Hm, then maybe you should write down some thoughts on the Thunderbolt? After all, I stated why I wouldn't, or even couldn't.
Something so solid yet so bland. What is there to write about? 
On the other hand, the Vulcan is a good one. I'll do that some time soon.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2008 04:44 Post subject: 3025 'mechs and their variants reviewed by categories |
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After what you've written about sub-capitals on CBT, I think me taking requests from you is, frankly, ridiculous.
BTW, the only reason why I didn't reply to that was because I don't play AT2 at all. But what a great article!
Anyways, the Stalker has been on my list from the start (it was on the agenda back when I did the Battlemaster instead), so I'll actually want to do that ASAP.
The Vindicator has a big pro and a big con: It is one of my top-10 favourites of 3025. And it only has one measly variant, which is more or less an unsuccessful experiment. I couldn't really delve into the change-of-role aspect of the thing. Yet it is still very much worth doing.
(PS - I notice that you guys replied to the main article - this is a reply to Master Arminas, you may want to switch on threaded mode)
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2008 04:47 Post subject: Re: 3025 'mechs and their variants reviewed by categories |
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| Vagabond wrote: | | No no no no... the best medium soldier is the Centurion. |
I wouldn't even argue that point all too much. Unless you hailed from House Liao. It is such a toss-up between these two 'Mechs in terms of general utility. The Centurion probably wins. But the Vindicator is both more aggressive and resilient. Want me to add that to the list?
[jymset updates to-do list in title post]
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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master arminas
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Colonel
Joined: 07-Mar-2007 16:14
Posts: 718
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2008 09:08 Post subject: 3025 'mechs and their variants reviewed by categories |
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Thanks! I just tried to lay out the pros and cons, but you are doing great with the only REAL 'Mechs (3025).
Arminas tar Valantil
Grand Master of the Ebon Rose
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2008 09:16 Post subject: Re: 3025 'mechs and their variants reviewed by categories |
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| master arminas wrote: | Thanks! I just tried to lay out the pros and cons, but you are doing great with the only REAL 'Mechs (3025).
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 - whereas I do exactly the opposite on CBT. There, I have never done anything other than Clan Omnis. 5, so far: Koshi, Black Lanner, Uller, Pariah and Man O' War. To me, those are the *other* REAL 'Mechs! 
And I have fairly good self-confidence on my ability to judge a given design's strengths and weaknesses. In limited scope, I can even comment on their place in the CBT universe.
But, alas, that doesn't compare to your eloquence one iota!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2008 02:52 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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Well, in a duel the CTF-1X firepower may be enough, but once multiple targets enter the fray, the CTF begins to feel the lack of ammo. The Warhammer can rain it's PPCs for quite some time, especially if it manages to hide behind some brick, but the Cataphract will fire it's 10 shots and it's suddenly down to firepower similar to the Wolfhound. I think that the lack of ammo is actually the Achilles heel of the design. It will do good in a skirmish like a true cavalry should, it will rock while performing a daring joust on the enemy, but just like the heavy cavalry, once it loses the momentum of it's charge, it can be easily overwhelmed. The more I look at the 'Mech, the more it resembles the Medieval knight... 
By this I don't want to disagree with what you said, I'm just sharing my impressions on one of my favourites.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2008 03:38 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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Well, seeing as we both like the 'Mech a lot, we aren't arguing at all, are we?
Of course, what you're saying is absolutely right. So, for those jobs, we're just going to have to recommend the CTF-2X! 
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2008 03:05 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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| jymset wrote: | | Well, seeing as we both like the 'Mech a lot, we aren't arguing at all, are we? |
Umm, no
| jymset wrote: | | Of course, what you're saying is absolutely right. So, for those jobs, we're just going to have to recommend the CTF-2X! |
Or some personal modification... shall I post some?
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jymset
Scavenger
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Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2008 13:59 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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[quote="Sleeping Dragon"] | jymset wrote: | | Or some personal modification... shall I post some? |
Most definitely, kind sir!
And don't forget to give us your rundown of the Thunderbolt, too, seeing as my quick review was found lacking.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 29-Sep-2008 02:13 Post subject: TDR-5S Thunderbolt |
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I'll agree with you that the Thunderbolt is one of the Swiss army knife 'Mechs, although the 'Mech doesn't suffer for that in any significant area. One of the strong points of the design is the armour, which can make up for many design glitches on it's own. The armament consists almost exclusively from energy and missile weapons, which are quite efficient and provide enough firepower to cover for secondary weapon system's deficiencies even when only the basic rules without infantry and vehicles are in play (in these games the MGs and SRMs are far less useful).
In the core of TDR armament lies a quartet of lasers, one large and three medium, which can deal enough damage to force piloting skill rolls, provided they all hit, and keep the 'Mech in battle for almost unlimited periods of time. The heat-sinks may not be enough to keep the 'Mech cool while firing and running, but with only 2 excess heat points from weapons there is an easy firing pattern that can keep the 'Mech cool while on the move. Long range firepower is augmented by LRM rack, which again can force piloting rolls when combined with the large laser. I think it's a wonderful coincidence that 15 missiles hit table reads 5/5/6/9/9/9/9/12/12/15/15, so that these weapons complement each other so well. Ample LRM ammo load allows some difficult shots at long range and give the TDR time to deal with short range juggernauts while staying safe away. SRMs seem to be the lamest weapon of all, with 50 shots for the small launcher the weapon is just tonnage that could be used to get more heat sinks or another medium laser, but in older edition the SRM-2s were the only viable inferno dispensers and this is the best general-use for the launcher. Fire is always a handy thing to have as the cave-man proved so long ago and I'm sure that infantry and vehicle crews will love me for mere mentioning of this fact. The same goes for the wrist mounted MG twin, which, while loaded with superfluous 200 shots, can prove it's worth in crowd control duties. The SRMs and MGs can also be used to keep the 'Mech cool and kicking, because to cause a piloting skill roll you need to hit with the LL, two MLs and one 2 point damage group, which gives the TDR better chance to knock enemy prone at short range.
The only thing that may be somewhat lacking is concentrated damage, but TDR's tactic usually involves wearing the enemy down, so the sheer volume of firepower is bound to make some holes. Heat dissipation could be better, but for me it's fine.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 29-Sep-2008 04:35 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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So, my analysis of the TDR-5S is already in it's place and here are some CTF variants.
These are just some concepts I've considered, but If I was to pick one, it would still be the 1Y, which is the most similar to the 1X.
As for the 1X, I think that the awkward placement of weapons could be a result of shameless metagame-thinking. Torso-twist doesn't change 'Mechs orientation for the puroses of hit-location determination. So if the CTF keep the enemy to it's left side it can catch shots into empty locations while keeping both weapons aimed at the enemy, which may earn you some extra turns of fighting before you have to retreat.
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jymset
Scavenger
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Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2008 04:55 Post subject: TDR-5S Thunderbolt |
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Very nicely put, I couldn't add much else to that. Yes, the Thunderbolt's strength is armour over guns with the added bonus of ample HS. Overheating should never be much of a problem with the Thunderbolt.
So, how do you value the others?
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 30-Sep-2008 05:00 Post subject: Re: CTF-*X Cataphract |
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 - that idea is really nasty! I realise that in my playing style, one of my weaknesses is not planning out the facing against the enemy well enough.
Sure, in terms of weapons, I'm always cool - I mean, I know to shoot at the Awesome's back from a location on hex left of the center rear row, and stuff like that. But in terms of planning where the enemy's weapons connect to my 'Mech, I only become conscious of it once I've lost all armour somewhere. In every single game, it is frustrating that I keep on making the same mistake - even though often it boils down to nothing. But hey, one is one's own harshest critic, and sometimes I tell myself: "well, that wasn't all that smart".
Funny that you remind me of that lesson via the example of one of my favourites!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 01-Oct-2008 06:46 Post subject: TDR-5SE and TDR-5SS |
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I think you've made a fitting description of each variant's capabilities, but I'll look on them as well.
TDR-5SE is a more maneuverable variant of the basic 5S, but it has made some sacrifices to achieve additional mobility. First of those is the complete loss of the ability to force piloting skill rolls outside medium laser range. Of course that it can still significantly contribute to medium range barrage of it's unit, but it's long range firepower is limited. With additional heat sinks and two tons of LRM ammo the SE Thunderbolt is able to jump and fire the LL and LRMs nonstop and it's probably expected to do that often. It can also jump and fire all it's lasers without any adverse effects, so I think that it's really meant to act in a role similar to the Grasshopper, although it's effectiveness in this role is somewhat limited. SE is also more suitable for anti-'Mech combat than for anything else, because all secondary weapons were removed. I don't like this variant too much, because it lost the raw firepower and versatility the 5S has and used the tonnage to get more mobility to fill the role that I can safely leave to the already mentioned Grasshoppers and Guillotines. If I wanted a jumping TDR, then I'd work with different things.
TDR-5SS is a close range specialist and it's also the variant I'd like to see turned into a jumper. I think that this will once grow into the botched Summoner A. I'd also like to know why the flamer doesn't sit in the same place as the MGs, where it would at least be useful. Torso mount is too restricting for it and it can't be quickly turned to face infantry emerging from cover. In 3025 the PPC is nothing to sneer at, but for a 65t machine it is not nearly enough, so I think that the best thing to do with the SS is to avoid med. laser range and bombard it from afar. It can handle two alpha-strikes (sans flamer) in a row even while running, which means a good chance to cause some harm while staying in range of it's short range weapons. Cooling down is also hardly a problem. It's undeniably a powerful brawler, but still slightly less in overall strength than the 5S (And still a 'Mech that I'd enjoy to have on my side).
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