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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: 03-May-2004 11:27 Post subject: TRO mech fault |
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I've noticed a little fault with several of the mech designs in the TRO's
They put XL engines with CASE. Whats the point when as soon as the torso is gone the mech is dead? OK it makes sense with clan mechs but they do it with the IS ones.
Another flaw, CASE on centre torso???!! 
If your thinking in real life terms then the CASE would be a sensible option as it would buy the pilot time to eject, but does it make a difference in games?
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 11:34 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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I agree it does sound strange, but maybe it there for pilot survivability.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 12:27 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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Doesnt the pilot auto eject during an ammo explosion or engine explosion? If so the case wouldn't make any difference. Unless (thinking real life) it buys the pilot some time in order for the system to activate, talking fractions of seconds but in real life combat its what counts.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 13:54 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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From everything I have read that is the reasoning behind it. For people who play long campaigns and use the same pilots this makes sense. On the other hand, for people like me that mostly play one at a time games case with an XL is useless. Once the mech is gone, it is gone so CASE only takes up needed space.
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Dead-Fish
Free Worlds League
Master Sergeant
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 163
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 14:42 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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also in the case of a long campaign it would leave most of the mech intact and ready for salvage
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 18:09 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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Quote:
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BMR pg 82:
Destroyed vs Truely Destroyed
In standard Battletech play, the term "destroyed" is used to describe the condition of units that are "mission kills"--units that have been killed or otherwise rendered inoperable for the length of a scenario. In most cases, such units can be repaired or used for salvage parts after the scenario ends.
Certain situations, however, leave a unit destroyed in the truest sense of the word--completely ruined, nonrepairable, and with no salvageable parts.
A Battlemech is only "truely destroyed" if its center torso internal structure is completely eliminated by artillery damage while in the target hex of an area-saturation artillery attack, or by damage from an ammo explosion. If a mech's center torso is destroyed in some other way, the mech's remaing parts may be salvagable.
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As in the case of CASE in the side torso's with XL, it is usefull to have in longterm games do to the ability to repair and refield such machines.
Why you would put CASE in the CT is beyond me as you would still loose the CT from damage caused by an ammo explosion and there for truely dead. dunno, maybe house rule that the CASE converts the damage type from ammo to case explosion damage and thus changing it from a truely destroyed unit to just destroyed.
but that is why guys. that is why. you gotta think campaigns and stop thinking 1 shot games.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1864
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 18:17 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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As was pointed out below, most, if not all, designs found in the TRO's are meant to be "real world" designs from the universe perspective...this is why so many of them have their own little quirks or whatnot that makes them not min/max designs...This is one of the reasons you'll find designs that use ferro instead of endo, some that lack double heat sinks, some that have CASE with XL engines, etc....they are designed from an "in universe" standpoint...
Ruger
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 18:29 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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Sometimes you get the feeling the mech designer hasn't read the rulebooks. Such as putting CASE in the CT.
In TRO3050 it looks like they just converted 3025 designs in a hurry. Why else keep the same number of heat sinks on certain mechs when switching from single to double heat sinks?
But it does keep the game interesting. What's so fun about winning with a perfectly heat-balanced alpha-striking pulse/TC combo 7-hex jumper? I think it's fun to use the book mechs (and variants) just because they're not perfect.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 19:02 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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The CASE limits the damage to the location of the explosion. Yes if the side torso on an XL engined mech were blown out the mech would be "dead". However the CASE prevents the spreading of the damage and hence it limits the colateral damage, reduces repair costs, and increases the survivability of the pilot.
It also depends on how you play. If you play scenario battles and/or duel style battles; then they make no sense to install. However if you prefer a series battle or a campaign then they make excellent sense. Especially if you are in nned of saving cash and you can't run all laser boats. Yes the XL engines are expensive to buy and repair, however without CASE you would also be buying a gyro too which can run to 1.2 mil cred at list price not to mention at whatever price you will be charged.
I am primarily a caimpaigner and a merc one at that. I place great emphasis on the safety of the personnel I command because we are a family. Yes mechs are expensive and relatively hard to get and people are a dime a dozen but it's not always easy to find the "right" pilot for the unit you're recruiting for and also it's hard to integrate a new pilot into a unit during a contract; which if you're short on funds means you take as many as you can get while maintaining unit cohesion and morale.
Let's look at the PPR-5S Salamander. It mounts an XL engine and has a CASE in it's RT and LT. Let's say there is no damage to the unit and an enemy take a potshot with a pair of LB 5-X AC's. He gets a lucky roll and gets a through armor crit without destroying all the armor. The 3rd ammo bin in the LT is hit and the ammo explodes!!!!
The LT is gone. The LA is on the ground. The pilot doesn't eject because the computer senses there's no danger to the pilot so he can stay in the cockpit safe from small arms fire and mostly safe from enemy mechs as they won't bother firing on a "dead" mech in hopes of gaining as much salvage as possible should they force your forces from the field of battle.
Now you have won and need to repair this mech.
Repairs with CASE.
320XL engine: 6,826,667 C-Bill
Double heatsinks: 60,000 C-Bills.
EndoSteel Structure: 19,975 C-Bills.
Armor: 21,250 C-Bills.
CASE: 50,000 C-Bills.
LRM 20: 250,000 C-Bills.
LRM ammo: 90,000 CiBills.
Total parts cost: 7,317,892 C-Bills.
Repairs without CASE.
320XL engine: 6,826,667 C-Bills.
Gyro: 1,200,000 C-Bills.
Double heatsinks: 60,000 C-Bills.
Cockpit: 200,000 C-Bills.
Endosteel Structure: 49,350 C-Bills.
Armor: 52,500 C-Bills.
LRM 20: 250,000 C-Bills.
LRM ammo: 90,000 C-Bills.
2 Medium lasers: 80,000 C-Bills.
Total parts cost: 7,608,517 C-Bills.
Difference: 290,625 C-Bills.
That's just the parts replacements. With the CT destroyed by ammo explosion it would technically be unsalvageable so then you can balance the cost of the repairs with a CASE to the costs of a new battlemech.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 19:11 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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Nightmare, they DID modify the older designs in a hurry.  They took the new lostech and just did a real quick manufacturing job as soon as they could and did change over of parts as they could with what they had available. That's why anyone you now could have designed a better upgrade for the 3025 designs using 3050 tech.
I mean you have all this new tech and the only change for the Scorpion was to upgrade to an ERPPC? not even double heatsinks or better armor or structure or engine upgrade? Nope.
The Scorpion is a rare unit and low priority as well. So it got the easiest mod you can get without an engineer.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-May-2004 21:45 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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O.K. Seraph you did make one mistake in your cost calculations the Engine in your case is damaged not destroyed and CAN be repaired at a cost much less than full replacement IIRC you can take either 4 or 5 crits on an XL engine before it is beyond repair.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
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| Posted: 04-May-2004 09:24 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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I am lucky to play 2-4 games a year Vagabond. 1 shot games are all I have time for. Some of us have lives outside of the BT universe. There is nothing wrong with kepping clear of campaigns.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 04-May-2004 09:52 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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BMR, page 88: Component status.
The text says a component in a section that loses all internal structure isn't necessarily destroyed. On a roll of 10+ it can be repaired. Of course, it's unclear to me if that applies to XL engines or not. Next statement is "Items that have at least one undamaged critical slot can always be repaired".
In any case (heh!) the problem is that repairs take time, and lots of it. Repairing an engine is also very difficult. Even Elite techs will have to roll high target numbers, and if they fail the thing is beyond repair.
MaxTech had more repair tables, but my copy is elsewhere right now.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-May-2004 10:05 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-04 09:24, Oafman wrote:
I am lucky to play 2-4 games a year Vagabond. 1 shot games are all I have time for. Some of us have lives outside of the BT universe. There is nothing wrong with kepping clear of campaigns.
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did i sat it was wrong? nope. did i ssay you need to play a campaign? nope. just said some people gotta start thinking campaign and stop thinking 1 shot.
fyi, out side mm i haven't played since AWAD vistited vegas last fall, and several years before that event.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
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| Posted: 04-May-2004 13:36 Post subject: RE: TRO mech fault |
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Quote:
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On 2004-05-03 18:09, Vagabond wrote:
Quote:
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BMR pg 82:
Destroyed vs Truely Destroyed
In standard Battletech play, the term "destroyed" is used to describe the condition of units that are "mission kills"--units that have been killed or otherwise rendered inoperable for the length of a scenario. In most cases, such units can be repaired or used for salvage parts after the scenario ends.
Certain situations, however, leave a unit destroyed in the truest sense of the word--completely ruined, nonrepairable, and with no salvageable parts.
A Battlemech is only "truely destroyed" if its center torso internal structure is completely eliminated by artillery damage while in the target hex of an area-saturation artillery attack, or by damage from an ammo explosion. If a mech's center torso is destroyed in some other way, the mech's remaing parts may be salvagable.
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As in the case of CASE in the side torso's with XL, it is usefull to have in longterm games do to the ability to repair and refield such machines.
Why you would put CASE in the CT is beyond me as you would still loose the CT from damage caused by an ammo explosion and there for truely dead. dunno, maybe house rule that the CASE converts the damage type from ammo to case explosion damage and thus changing it from a truely destroyed unit to just destroyed.
but that is why guys. that is why. you gotta think campaigns and stop thinking 1 shot games.
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The CT case still allows the pilot to survive AND the rest of the mech (head, side torsos, arms and legs) is still salvagable for components. And in a campaign those components can mean life or death for a unit on extended duty with poor supply lines.
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