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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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 Posted: 17-Aug-2002 16:20 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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On 2002-08-17 14:53, Vagabond wrote:
boy, your assuming alot.......
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No, I'm not. What I describe is a natural progression from things I have worked on myself. I made a tiny robot with 2k of memory navigate a course and pick up colored objects. Having the government build military grade weapons with a good amount of AI is not that much of a stretch.
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first, build a better sensor.... a better blocker gets built. the feild of hide n seek has always and will always be done.
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No, that's not the way it works anymore. It's not that straight forward. There exists technology such as multiplicity of sensors and electronics that detects passive traits and make memory logs. I'm not just talking detection, I am saying future smart weapons will have recognition.
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.... were as BT has said and shown time and again that technology is in the dumps.
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Prior to the discovery of the Star League Mem Core this was the answer. But its hard to swallow if they supposedly underwent some kind of technological renaissance.
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third, lets not forget mans favorite ability....... the ability to forget. *snip*
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Well, you can make the case that hi-tech has been forgotten. But that's kind of disappointing for a game that has "tech" in its name.
Anyway, what's wrong with the answer I put forward? So the IS is basically using aerial unguided rockets on all their machines. That's not so terrible.
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[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-08-17 16:22 ]
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 09:19 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Yeah, it must be luck because that's the only way you can continue to hype your missile rules because if my explainatiuon is correct (and you've not proved it to be wrong in any way) then there's no reason for your rules.
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chihawk
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 09:21 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Doesn't matter--you pay the penalty as if the missiles go thru the hex so it means the missiles go thru the hex.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 11:47 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-18 09:19, chihawk wrote:
Yeah, it must be luck because that's the only way you can continue to hype your missile rules
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I can say it luck because thats what it would take to make the shot. And posting one message every 3 months about my rules is hardly hyping them.
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because if my explanation is correct (and you've not proved it to be wrong in any way)
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Of course I have, but you didn't address those points.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-08-18 11:48 ]
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chihawk
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 11:55 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-18 11:47, Gangrene wrote:
I can say it luck because thats what it would take to make the shot. And posting one message every 3 months about my rules is hardly hyping them.
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By hyping them I mean you bring them up every chance you get.
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Of course I have, but you didn't address those points.
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I'd address them if you made some.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 12:24 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-18 11:55, chihawk wrote:
By hyping them I mean you bring them up every chance you get.
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Which is about once every 3 months. That must be so hard for you, to read my crap about a subject I've done hours of research on.
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I'd address them if you made some.
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Well, my finer points do require a certain amount of base knowledge. Like critical reading skills.
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[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-08-18 12:28 ]
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 12:57 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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And let's not forget that shooting a building with missiles from and adjacent hex requires no roll as all the missles will hit. No ECMs in those buildings! 
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chihawk
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 21:03 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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Your whole point is that because ECM sucks now it must suck in the future. I say my explaination is logical and you've said NOTHING that proves it incorrect.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2002 23:28 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-18 21:03, chihawk wrote:
Your whole point is that because ECM sucks now it must suck in the future. I say my explaination is logical and you've said NOTHING that proves it incorrect.
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Do you have any idea how ECM works? I didn't say it sucks, but it is past its prime. ECM generally effects radar by creating a large amount of noise. It doesn't block light, it doesn't block infrared, it won't erase a guided weapons memory or interpolation algorithms (should there be such tech), and if it's so powerful it can be traced back to its source. Saying ECM just magicaly confuses missiles is completely wrong.
You didn't acknowledge any of my points regarding multiplicity of sensors, future AI tech, or that self-correcting systems behave much differently than systems that don't self correct.
Btech missiles are non-feedback systems because they behave just like bullets. The odds of 20 missiles hitting through such-and-such terrain at long range are no better than all the shots from an LB-20X cluster round hitting through such-and-such terrain at long range. The range might be a little different, but that is hardly indication of control.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 04:59 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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>Btech missiles are non-feedback systems because they behave just like bullets.
Yep, very much so. But there's a difference, they aren't unguided rockets that fly in a straight line. They are programmed to fly in a preset trajectory. They have steering fins and thrusters to adjust to that trajectorie, controlled by a cheap microprocessor. So they technically they are missiles. Unguided rockets would be MRMs, and way cheaper, too.
Did you read my explanation, Gangrene?
It seems like no one is paying me attention *sigh*
Perhaps you didn't get the reference to WWII torpedoes? Do I have to explain how a firing solution is calculated? Please say so, and I'll write it. The procedure is very much the same, the much faster speed of a missile cancelling out the increased difficulty of hitting a taget faster, smaller and with a more erratic course than a ship, like a 'Mech or armored vehicle.
About the roll in the missile hit table. Going with the above explanation, fits it nicely. You are basically firing a spread of missiles ,if your firing solution is precise enough, most of the missiles will hit the target.. if it isn't, you can fire the missiles spread enough to ensure something hits. A bad roll in the missile table only means you took a pot shot and hit only by luck, or that the target altered its course suddenly, and that your misiles either overshot or fell short, maybe just by inches, but that's all it takes.
So I have come to the conclusion that missile flights are fired by salvos of 5 tubes, in rapid succession, very much in the same way as a multiple launch of topredoes was done, Fire tube 1, fire tube 2 with another angle..etc-
That's why you come up with those averages of hits, the first volley of missiles normally miss, but corrections are fed into the next salvos while still in their tubes and the rest of the flight hits.
Alternatively, a target that is fired upon could execute a sudden maneuver to throw off the aim of the firer, so with some luck the target would be hit by the first missiles, but the last ones would mis because they were aimed for a spot where the target no longer is.
In the case of the LRM 5, missiles would be fired one by one, that's why is so damn hard to strike with a full salvo, and in the case of SRMs, I would imagine them fired by pairs. A SRM-2 is a truly inaccurate weapon indeed.
That does it for standard missiles. Like I said, hi-tech guidance systems were abandoned because they are simply not cost effective.
But then, Star League tech and superior DOES have guided missiles. I suggest reading again TR0 3025 , 3050, Max Tech and the like.
Streaks seem to be radar guided, semiactive guidance. Once a target lock has been achieved, they are "fire and forget".
Artemis are SACLOS type missiles (Semi Active Guidance by Line of Sight) very much like most of the antitank missiles in use today. The firer has to keep the target in its crosshairs, and the missile will home in it.
There are Narc missiles, too, wich is a cheap and inventive solution.
Semiguided LRMs and Arrow IVs are laser guided, homing on a target illuminated by a TAG.
I think those are very clever solutions that offer more precision at a minimum cost.
Yes, you could have guided missiles type "fire and forget" that would home on their targets by themselves with a 100% chance of hitting.
But, at what cost?
I think the guided missiles in Battletech are well done. And don't know why you complain so much. What rules do you suggest?
And answering Chandra original question:
-It's very difficult to hit with all the missiles in a flight. You fire on the approximate direction of the target, and hope for the best.
-The guided systems available are far from perfect, they just increase the chances of more missiles hitting the target. They are just a compromise solution between sophistication and cost.
-Streak missiles are the most accurate of all guided missiles, however, they are so costly that they are restricted to SRMs. (by the way, Streak missiles should cost three times as much, not just double)
-Game balance. Streak LRMs would be a terror.
[ This Message was edited by: Vampire on 2002-08-19 05:04 ]
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chihawk
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 06:45 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-18 23:28, Gangrene wrote:
Do you have any idea how ECM works? I didn't say it sucks, but it is past its prime. |
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I do know how ECM works. And there's no reason to think it couldn't be used in the "future".
There's one thing about this that you seem to be forgetting...IT'S A GAME!!!!!!
But we all know you don't like much about this game. Your choice. Just makes me wonder why you bother to play it.
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chihawk
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 09:15 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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Oh, and another thing...further proof that ECM does have the possibility of doing what I say is Stealth Armor, of which ECM is a vital component.
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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 10:11 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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...Wow. I feel like the Coyote after his ton of "Acme TNT" blows up in his face, and when the smoke clears he's just standing there on his pair of "Acme rocket-powered roller skates with his eyebrows smoking (note, I did NOT say "missile-powered roller skates").
Thanks to everyone for their input here. I will definitely have many possible answers to give to my nephew the next time we play BT (although I think I will stop short of attacking his intelligence).
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 10:21 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-19 04:59, Vampire wrote:
-Game balance. Streak LRMs would be a terror.
[ This Message was edited by: Vampire on 2002-08-19 05:04 ]
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Too late- I think I saw those for the Clans in MaxTech.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 11:41 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-19 06:45, chihawk wrote:
I do know how ECM works. And there's no reason to think it couldn't be used in the "future".
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I just don't think it will be used by itself as a means to an end. It will have to be complimented by other systems, IMO.
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There's one thing about this that you seem to be forgetting...IT'S A GAME!!!!!!
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Yeah, but there's no need to be sloppy.
If infantry in Axis&Allies could destroy 3 tanks without a problem I would complain about that, or if Age of Empires had their bowman firing explosive arrows I would definitely complain about that. The game Supremacy I did complain about and refuse to play it until it is completely rewritten. Its not like I just complain about Btech.
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But we all know you don't like much about this game. Your choice. Just makes me wonder why you bother to play it.
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Mostly out of nostalgia or for slugfests. In 3025 and early 3050 they had a great excuse for everything behaving poorly, and I still like that game.
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