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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
Joined: 20-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 737
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 Posted: 02-Apr-2002 14:13 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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This below is a compliation of things i've noticed. I may be dead wrong about some of the information, so feel free to correct me. I live in the U.S.A. All examples are taken from American weapons or units.
Thinking about my other post and the anti-tank rifleman post, I've thought about some stuff. In the fluff, the rifleman had a AC which shot 500 rounds of 20mm ammo. What I don't get, is that A) the ammo is just standard kenetic energy ammo and B) it pierces armor.
20mm vulcan ammo today is HEAP (high explosve armor piercing) and it is never used against anything expect "soft" targets such as infantry, unarmored vechicles, or aircraft. It dosen't ANYTHING to tank armor. The modern anti tank system on the M1A1 MBT uses a combination of 120mm sabot (kenetic energy) and HEAT (high explosive anti tank) to use against enemy tanks. The 120 mm depleted uranium round dosen't pierce the armor, it creates a furrow in it and the shockwaves begin to explode the carried ammo in the enemy tank. The HEAT round buries itself in the armor and explodes, ripping a chunk of armor out of the tank and hopefully disabling it as the treads/turrent can be warped to the point to uselessness.
Back to the rifleman, I can't see how ANY amount of 20mm ammunition could possibly penetrate 5 tons of armor. The rounds would have to impact on the EXACT same spot, which cannot happen becase as the barrel of the AC expands from the heat of friction, the shots become displaced.
A gauss rifle propels a small but extremely heavy projecticle at hypersonic speeds using electromagic "rail gun" technolgy. What irks me about this is thats the slug would penetratre any and all armor on a battlemech, maybe fragment, strike all iternal equipment in it's path, and the full round would pass right thought the mech, or the fragments would get lodged in the criticals and probally hamper abaility (fragments in an actuator, sensors, weapon reload bays, jump jet/heat sink ports). However, this would take a precision shot as, like a spear, you are putting a incredible amount of force into one SMALL point.
Fighter aircraft or gunships in real life carry maybe 4 short ranged (6 mile) air to air missiles, maybe 2 medium ranged (20 mile) missiles, and maybe 2 long ranged (80 mile missiles). Engagements such as the "dogfight" do not exist anymore. Pilots use radars and shoot down targets they only see as a green diamond on a radar or a HUD. Close range engagements do not usually exist for tanks either. IRL, 1 missile is more than enough to put down ANY fighter or bomber aircraft on a direct hit, and 1 or 2 rockets at max will take out a tank. Laser guides Hellfife rockets are launched from helicopters over 9 miles away and guides with surgical precision into it. TOW missiles are launched up to a mile away and are wire guided right into a target, using a joystick and a little 10x TV camera. A Phoenix U.S. navy longe range missile weighs 1/2 a short ton and has a range about 3x that of an Arrow IV, and dosen't require a launcher of any kind. Their loaded right onto hardpoints and wired into the plane's FCS. Nothing carries dozens or hundreds of missiles.
What I'm getting at is, realistically, the way the weapons are set up in battletech would not work correctly. Weapon function, tonnage, weight, range, and guidnce just dosen't figure out. And I haven't even gone into lasers, which I won't.
I know it that taking all of this into account in the game mechanics would totally imbalance it, but it sure makes it hard as hell for a writer to work with 
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Apr-2002 15:16 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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Many Fighter aircraft just after World War II that were designed were designed without gunmounts. The idea here was that with missles no-one needed a machine gun any more. This error in judgment became painfully obvious when during the Vietnam war, we lost large numbers of aircraft in actual dogfights.
The OP orders there were no firing your missles until you could positively identify your target. They used to send a "hot" aircraft forward into the advance area of the enemy formation to spot and positively ID the targets before launching. Significant numbers of enemy engagements came down to a nose to nose slugging match, and now, I think every fighter aircraft in inventory has a machine gun, including the F22.
Even back then, it was not exactly hard to make a missle miss. My company got started designing EW suites which confused SA-2s, and once our aircraft began being equipped, our losses do to land based missles dropped dramatically.
Pin
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5606
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Apr-2002 15:44 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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In the fluff, the rifleman had a AC which shot 500 rounds of 20mm ammo.
20mm vulcan ammo today is HEAP (high explosve armor piercing); It dosen't do ANYTHING to tank armor. The modern anti tank system on the M1A1 MBT uses a combination of 120mm sabot (kenetic energy) and HEAT (high explosive anti tank) to use against enemy tanks.
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well good point. but the awnser you seek here has been handeled. search out vampires alternate damage system for the battletech board game. which uses a damage penitration system over damage attrition. meaning ac/2 [in vamp's sys ac/3] usually do not pierce enemy armor. instead just denting it.
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A gauss rifle propels a small but extremely heavy projecticle at hypersonic speeds using electromagic "rail gun" technolgy. What irks me about this is thats the slug would penetratre any and all armor on a battlemech, However, this would take a precision shot as, like a spear, you are putting a incredible amount of force into one SMALL point.
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good annalasys. we can see you've done research. but you assume 1 thing. that mechs arnt designed to counter gausses.
anotherthing you miss. yes, rail guns have amazing penitration, but how much does it weight? how large is it? sure as he@@ not 15tons, n less then 3meters.
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Fighter aircraft or gunships in real life carry maybe 4 short ranged (6 mile) air to air missiles, maybe 2 medium ranged (20 mile) missiles, and maybe 2 long ranged (80 mile missiles). A Phoenix U.S. navy longe range missile weighs 1/2 a short ton and has a range about 3x that of an Arrow IV, and dosen't require a launcher of any kind. Their loaded right onto hardpoints and wired into the plane's FCS.
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you really must be new i say to my self. as this was handeled by Gangrene. Search out Gangrene's Missile System, in which you can mount, high powered, self-guiding, surface to air, surface to surface, and air to surface missiles. which are mounted on hard points, but covered by a launcher, to prevent very easy ammo explosions.
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What I'm getting at is, realistically, the way the weapons are set up in battletech would not work correctly. Weapon function, tonnage, weight, range, and guidnce just dosen't figure out. And I haven't even gone into lasers, which I won't.
I know it that taking all of this into account in the game mechanics would totally imbalance it, but it sure makes it hard as hell for a writer to work with
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but its these inaccurasis that give bt its own world. that gives its sci and fi.
you could increase the ranges of all weapons, use alternate fcs rules [my own design], but do you have the space or maps to make a 8 klick ingagement zone?
and does any battle, on standard bt maps, usually not involve enough light woods to prevent los as is in the game.
so while not realistic, it just makes bt special.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Apr-2002 15:58 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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A fluff reason for the allowance of damage from machineguns was that Battletech armor is more malleable, and less hard, than conventional armor. I think the fluff said it gets better energy dissipation properties at the cost of decreased hardness.
I have always thought of Battletech missiles as being similar to the hydra packs carried by helicopters and such. Basically dumb missiles where any guidance they may have is enacted prior to launch (like a gun). Those kind of missiles are still used today and have a place in the battlefield, although I do think Btech portrays them poorly.
True guided missiles do not exist in the Btech universe (not in any form that mimics how they atually work). I have developed some rules for various types of guided missiles if you are interested.
Early guided missiles were pretty primitive and easy to fool. Newer missiles have more advanced guidance hardware and methods that has increased accuracy quite a bit, so much so that they are the preffered method of attacking an enemy (as you pointed out). However, no matter how good they bcome there will always be a place for mg's IMO.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-04-02 15:59 ]
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 16:53 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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On 2002-04-02 14:13, Ares wrote:
This below is a compliation of things i've noticed. I may be dead wrong about some of the information, so feel free to correct me
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Well, you know just enough to get in trouble 
Don't get me wrong, the science of the Battletech universe recquires a lot of research, not only of actual technology, but also of the conventions of sci-fi and the very specific constraints of the setting. Everything makes sense at the end, but it gets a lot of research and thinking to understand why the things are that way. Generally speaking, FASA writers hadn't a clue about technology, after all they borrowed the technological background from Hero Games, nor wargaming, being a rpg publisher, the basic Battletech rule set was an adaptation of rules for a WWII tank game.
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A) the ammo is just standard kenetic energy ammo
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The standard load, armor piercing saboted rounds as most effective against armor, shaped charge high explosive for long range shots, and standard HE for antipersonnel use and blowing up stuff.
As a default, my rules and all the analysis I've written deal with standard kinetic energy rounds. Any gun can just as easily shoot shells for other purposes. It's just one of those add ons I haven't yet covered.
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B) it pierces armor.
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Well, Battletech armor, if portrayed accurately, is halfway between bullet-stopper armor (for lack of a better word) like we have today and the ablative system of the basic rules, that absorbs damage but is worn away in the process. As Vagabond has pointed out, I refer you my earlier post "Advanced Damage System" and my website files.
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The 120 mm depleted uranium round dosen't pierce the armor, it creates a furrow in it and the shockwaves begin to explode the carried ammo in the enemy tank.
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Dead wrong. It drills a hole all the way through the inside of the tank, and keeps on going, chunks of red hot metal displaced by the passage of the round (think of the splinters that fly from a bullet hole through a wooden plank, to get the idea) bounce around inside the tank, hitting the crew, the ammo, and the fuel. In addition, uranium is pyrophoric, some of the round is worn away by the friction of penetration, and it becomes so hot that it burns.
That's what it makes them so deadly. Previous tungsten penetrators lacked this incendiary ability, so quite often, if the fuel or the ammo weren't hit by the penetrator, a tank could survive a hit, even if the round had managed to get through the tank and exit on the other side.
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The HEAT round buries itself in the armor and explodes, ripping a chunk of armor out of the tank and hopefully disabling it as the treads/turrent can be warped to the point to uselessness.
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*shakes head* You have no clue, sorry. I'm surprised because the way shaped charges work is general knowledge, even if inaccurate.
I have a good article describing the exact workings of HEAT rounds, if you wish, I can send it to you for your enlightenment
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A gauss rifle propels a small but extremely heavy projecticle at hypersonic speeds using electromagic "rail gun" technolgy.
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Duh. Small and dense round. Supersonic speeds, same thing as tank gun today.
The only thing that changes is the propulsion system.
This is another of those things I'll have to write down someday. Some points. I don't preach the gospel, but I work with "best fit" theory. This is the best explanation I've found and will stick to it till somebody comes with a better one.
1) It isn't a "rifle". It's not a "rail gun" either. It uses related physics, but it's a more advanced idea than railguns. The gun tube is a spool (solenoid) that generates a powerful magnetic field inside, the rounds that enter the gun tube from the breech are covered with a magnetic alloy so the magnetic field can push them out of the barrel. It's similar to the way maglev trains work.
2) It doesn't fire a single projectile, much less a melon shaped one. Basically, the idea behind electromagnetic (EM) guns is to get rid of the fire hazard gunpowder. Depending on power generation constraints, the EM guns may have better ballistic properties than conventional guns, that means longer ranges and armor penetration abilities.
Btw, I remember how *everybody* in this board
flamed me for being skeptical, when the issue of railguns was brought up on account of news of railgun experimentation by the US Navy. The crowd were taking this model as the one to base Gauss guns on, without a critical analysis.
Aside from numerous technical objections, everybody was so taken with a line from the article that said "the projectiles go so fast that would flip over a tank on impact".
(Pause). "Flip over". Indeed. If the so called scientists that were doing this are unable to remember something as simple as the conservation of linear momentum
m*V = M*v
where
m= mass projectile (insignificant, say 1kg)
V= velocity projectile (several thousand meters per second)
M= mass of the tank (i.e 40 tons, 40.000kg)
v= a few *centimeters* per second, if it moves at all.
I still have the article somewhere, it looked to me like they were university graduates playing with a new toy rather than serious military research, and bore little relation with articles in serious military magazines about EM guns I had read.
3) In conclusion, the Gauss cannon works like an autocannon, it fires several kinetic energy penetrators, with the advantages of having better range and penetration on average, and without the hazards of explosive ammunition.
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the slug would penetratre any and all armor on a battlemech, maybe fragment, strike all iternal equipment in it's path, and the full round would pass right thought the mech, or the fragments would get lodged in the criticals and probally hamper abaility (fragments in an actuator, sensors, weapon reload bays, jump jet/heat sink ports).
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You just discovered what happens when a 'Mech suffers a critical hit With variations,it happens the same when an energy beam of a missile warhead breach through the armor.
missiles snipped, I'll add my followup comments to Gangrene post later.
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What I'm getting at is, realistically, the way the weapons are set up in battletech would not work correctly. Weapon function, tonnage, weight, range, and guidnce just dosen't figure out. And I haven't even gone into lasers, which I won't.
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You'd be very, VERY surprised. Let's get this straight, Battletech rules have nothing to do with reality. But the underlying premises of the setting, do figure out in the end. Even lasers, all of this, of course, taken in a sci-fi context. But Battletech is more sound than you think at this point.
Onto your next post.
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2753
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 18:51 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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To put it simply, it comes down to a 'sword-vs-shield' argument. If the weapons systems were made more realistic to what we have today, units would be going down left and right. Instead, while FASA can't get a lot of things straight, they did at least get the game to be fairly balanced.
Think about this:
1 AGM Hellfire has a range (last time I checked) of approximately 6 kilometers. Each hex on a BTech board is only 30 meters. That means that someone could, if the Hellfire was directly translated, send out a guided missile with a good-sized payload over 200 hexes- bear in mind that this would be direct LOS, as the standard Hellfires are laser-guided. 200 hexes is the same as some of the longer-ranged artillery pieces. And bear in mind, to be realistic, it would have to do around 30 or so points of damage in order to keep the same tank-killing capabilities as it would have in real life.
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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
Joined: 20-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 737
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 21:13 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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Well, taking all of this into consideration, I think I'm now prepared to add some closing comments to this thread:
1. These are the ramblings of a 13 year old interested in science fiction, BTU, and modern warfare. I don't have access to any BT materials and have not read any of them. I've never been to another BT site, and I never have been to any of your web sites and seen your alternate rulesets. I just started coming here after I got into mech2 and mech4 and did a search on them on Yahoo.
2. I appreciate all of you correcting me on the physics/and effects I have mistaken, I really have learned a lot from this and reaffirmed by position on BT. Although it dosen't exactly line up with real life, I can see the points made by Gangrene about game balance and Vampire for pointing out that real life and BT warfare actually does line up quite a bit. Again, thanks for the arguments (not in a negitave sense), since I think that they're the best way to learn.
3. Coming back to comment #1, I'd really appreciate it if you guys could send me copies of these documents you mentioned or give me some addresses for these sites. My mail is Ares88@aol.com
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2753
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2002 21:22 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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Go to www.classicbattletech.com
I'm on there under this same callsign, and so are a few of the others from here. Anyhow, how far are you from your nearest hobby/RPG shop? If you have some extra money to spare and a ride, you can probably find some of the manuals. The older ones have a cover value of less than $20 each, but some of the newer ones can really set you back. But, there's always the good old Christmas list if handed to someone who knows where to get RPG items.
BTW, don't go by just the MW or MC games alone. They're wholly inacurate.
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"I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat." -Edgar Allen Poe"I knew there was something special about you, but I never realized you were really a cat." Wolfwood to a random cat (Trigun)
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2002 13:56 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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On 2002-04-15 21:13, Ares wrote:
1. These are the ramblings of a 13 year old interested in science fiction, BTU, and modern warfare.
3. Coming back to comment #1, I'd really appreciate it if you guys could send me copies of these documents you mentioned or give me some addresses for these sites. My mail is Ares88@aol.com
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Whoops! Sorry for lecturing you kid You must have been bored to tears. The questions that you made, come up often, to the point I should make a FAQ. I posted the answers for the benefit of others that have misconceptions about Battletech sci-fi or just cannot figure it out.
In case you have missed it, I posted the links in the response to another of your threads.
Welcome to Battletech, hope you enjoy the ride youngblood
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Apr-2002 14:00 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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And people say I have to much time on my hands, YEESH
Honestly. I do not have a clue. I was in the Navy, on a support ship. The only thing I know about ammo. is where to ship it. And even then we where not sure.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2002 15:11 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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Vampire,
I didn't read that as a lecture.. more saw it as a very well written piece on modern armaments..
Pin
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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
Joined: 20-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 737
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2002 18:51 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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agreed
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Apr-2002 22:59 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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And what you are all forgetting with the stars in your eyes from these whiz-bang gee-willickers weapons is that it still takes the guy with the rifle in his hands and mud on his boots to take and hold the land. Air can't do it. Artillery can't do it, Armor can't do it. Just the poor bloody Infantry.
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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
Joined: 20-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 737
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| Posted: 19-Apr-2002 20:57 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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it's not that, we just all know what a M16 round does. But on that not, what DO infantry use in BT? Laser Rifles?
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2753
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Apr-2002 21:12 Post subject: Modern day to BTU technologies |
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Read my reply in the other post. And when all else fails, make stuff up. The manuals from GURPs, Shadowrun, and some other systems can be easily converted with some extra free time and some brainpower.
I'd suggest that you start with the 'Compendium of Contemporary Weapons.' It's outdated, but still in print.
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