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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2753
Location: United States
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 Posted: 12-Apr-2002 18:16 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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(Note: The following is a result of comparing the texts of The Armory: Volume 1 [Kevin Dockery, Firebird
Limited, 1983; meant for their game systems] to both Max Tech and the FM:FS, which is essentially in agreeance
with MaxTech on these things.)
After comparing all the books, I noticed some major discrepancies between them. And as I am inclined to
believe Mr. Dockery more (The guy even went through DOD to get his info.), I have some rules changes to
suggest.
1. Caseless Ammo:
Here, the two manuals agree except for one thing. The one weapon in The Armory that uses Caseless
states that because there is no case to be extracted, the gun can obtain a higher than normal rate of fire. Proposed
rules changes:
1. Any Caseless Autocannon follows the same rules for Ultra autocannons.
2. Caseless Autocannons do not jam; instead, if a 2 is rolled, the pilot must make a successful piloting
skill roll or the round goes off in the barrel. If this happens, the damage is then applied to the location itself.
3. RACs cannot be Caseless (munch-proofing.)
2. Tracer Rounds:
By The Armory, Tracers were meant for flight path correction during any condition, not just night. Also, it
says nothing about loss of punch, even with the container of trace at the base. As a compromise between the two,
the following changes are proposed:
1. As Tracer rounds only occupy only 10% of the ammo bin, the player must figure out how many rounds
are actual tracers instead of just regular rounds and track that seperately at a regular interval, starting from the first
round, which is always a Tracer.
2. The round after a player fires a Tracer, he recieves an additional +1 to-hit bonus because the Tracer
allowed him to correct his aim.
3. “Tracers work both ways,” according to Murphy’s Laws Of Combat. The player must announce each
time a Tracer is fired, unless it is a surprise attack. If the target makes a successful perception check, he can
actually figure out where it was fired from by tracing its flight path back, netting him the same benefits from Max
Tech. (GM choice.)
4. Tracers do not lose punch just because there is a small container of trace material at the base; they still
do full damage.
5. Machine guns can now use tracer munitions.
3. Incindiary Munitions:
Simply put, the rules as FASA has them for these munitions at best represent an ignorance of the weapons
system itself. Incindiary munitions do *not* ignite upon leaving the barrel. Incindiary munitions are like tracers
except that instead of a container of trace paint, there is a container of incindiary base that ignites on impact with a
hard object. As a result, the following changes are proposed:
1. Autocannon rounds labeled as being incindiary do half the size rating (2, 5, 10, 20) damage in the form
of normal damage (1, 3, 5, 10.) The other half (1, 2, 5, 10) is converted to heat for the unit’s heat table. This is
suggested to more accurately reflect how the round itself works.
2. Machine guns can also use incindiary munitions.
_________________
"I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat." -Edgar Allen Poe"I knew there was something special about you, but I never realized you were really a cat." Wolfwood to a random cat (Trigun)
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8047
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Apr-2002 19:14 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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I need to indicate that I know Kevin Dockery and The Armory was written as the first book in what was supposed to be several volume set of weapons for use in role playing games. One of the game systems he used was Espionage (which was later redesigned and reissued as Danger International), which was owned by Hero Games. Hero had a cease order issued and that was the end of that series.
Funny thing, The Armory is not compatible with Morrow Project, which was designed as Kevin's Master's thesis. Go figure 
But in reply to Kraken's post....nice work, but not anything I think is needed for Battletech.
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2753
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Apr-2002 22:01 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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I did that becuase the pre-existing description FASA set down for the incindiary ammo was just plain stupid. As I started trying to figure out a more intelligent approach to it, I also wound up making the propositions over a few other ammo types as well.
_________________
"I wish I could write as mysterious as a cat." -Edgar Allen Poe"I knew there was something special about you, but I never realized you were really a cat." Wolfwood to a random cat (Trigun)
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5606
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Apr-2002 22:26 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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i would hazard 10-1, that bt ac's already use a caseless ammo as there base ammo. most lvl3 options are derived from house rules n such. so while they published several caseless ammo types, i'd just go with the assumption there already standsard.
again, assumed standard issue. if i'm correct, even the use still retains tracers in there rapid fire cannons. see above for more.
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3. Incindiary Munitions:
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well plus 10 heat for an ac/20 just dosent sit in my gulet well. maybe divid by 5. making the ac/2 to small to effectivly use it.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 03-May-2002 06:33 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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Why would incendiary ammo do anything at all
to non-flammable objects? They`re useful for
setting terrain and buildings on fire, not
roasting BattleMechs. Armor doesn`t burn very well, as it`s a bit hard to ignite.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-May-2002 07:39 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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They raise the head level in the mech. And as we all know, Heat kills...Except for level 1 pilots that is......
Sir Henry
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 03-May-2002 10:52 Post subject: Proposed Rules Changes Concerning L3 Autocannon Ammo |
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You are making the mistake of using a small arms sourcebook to represent cannon ammunition, the source you need is some Twilight 2000 stuff on heavy weapons.
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1. Caseless Ammo:
2. Tracer Rounds:
3. Incendiary Munitions:
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CASELESS
1.- Caseless ammo has been experimented with for tank guns during the past 40 years, with nightmarish results for the most part (read about the Sheridan tank horror story)
Caseless ammo is an attempt at getting rid of the cartridge cases, wich have the following drawbacks: are heavy, expensive ((brass made, though aluminium is used now, and steel was used in WWII, cheaper but added weight), empty cases litter the cramped insides of the tank, and make it uncomfortable because they are hot and fill it with noxious fumes.
Caseless rounds have the disadvantages of being more sensitive to dirt, rough handling, heat, humidity, more of a fire hazard (since they don't have the protective sleeve of the cartridge case), and prone to premature detonation. Moreover, they also tend to foul the barrel with residues, because they rarely combust completely, and without the cartridge case to act as a heat sink, absorbing some of the heat of the firing, they tend to overheat the barrel.
In recent years some of these problems have been solved, but not completely. Western 120mm tank gun rounds use a compromise solution. Most of the cartridge case is hard celullose that combusts on firing, with a metal butt at the base. This lightens the round and reduces the problem of empty cases piling inside the tank.
Caseless ammo is of interest in automatic weapons because it simplifies the reloading mechanism, and does away with ejecting empty cases.
So my proposal is that caseless autocannons should mass 1 or 0.5 tons less, have 1 critical line less, and have double shots per ton, and a heat increase of 1 heat level or 2.
Plus a 2 To hit roll should result in a misfire (bad ammo, premature detonation and so), and perhaps you should up the avoidance roll for ammo explosions, to reflect the fire hazard of this ammo and the chances of it cooking off under high heat.
Oh, btw, you can make caseless versions of any kind of autocannon, since the only different is the reloading mechanism and ammo storage.
TRACER
Tracer rounds are just standard rounds with a mixture at the base that either burns with bright light, or leaves a trail of smoke. Using tracer rounds as an aiming aid only works if you are firing scores of bullets, so I'd restrict it to MGs, and perhaps AC/2s.
The damage and other characteristics of the round remain unchanged.
Some armor piercing tank gun rounds have a tracer element, but that's because AP rounds have very little visible impact if the target isn't set alight or explodes, so the tracer is there to show the gunner where has the round landed, but more as a confirmation than a gunnery aid.
INCENDIARY
Incendiary rounds for small arms are the same as tracer, a standard round with an incendiary mixture at the base.
As such, they should give a chance to iginite flammable stuff on impact, or perhaps even add a +1 modifier to the Determining Critical Hits tables (once the internal structure is damaged), but they should be restricted to MGs.
Incendiary rounds for cannons are hollow shells filled with an incendiary mixture. White Phosphorus is the universal choice, on impact it throws pieces of flaming phosphorus all around. It's a very effective antipersonnel weapon because it burns very hot and causes horrific injuries, it burns in contact with oxygen, so it cannot be extinguished with water, and besides generating a lot of toxic smoke and starting fires everywhere it lands, fragments of phosphorus fly slow and take several seconds to land, so its "area denial" effect it's better than conventional shrapnel.
However, tanks carry WP rounds mostly for the purpose of creating smokescreens, not only from the fires started but because WP generates thick white smoke, plus messing with IR vision equipment.
However, WP wouldn't affect Battlemechs in the least raising the heat levels of the target 'Mech, only indirectly by starting fires in the target hex. To overheat a 'Mech with fire, you have to use napalm or similar stuff (Inferno bombs and flamers)
I'm also unconvinced about Armor Piercing Incendiary rounds for autocannons, that work like their small arm counterparts.
Considering the few rounds fired by the bigger caliber ACs, and the small amount of incendiary element present, I'm inclined to think that the effect would be superfluous or irrelevant: if an AC round has breached the armor, then it would cause enough havoc inside it anyway, than adding a bit of flaming stuff it's not going to make a significant difference. Incendiary ammo was meant for use in machineguns to set alight the fuel tanks of enemy aircraft, after all.
I concede that a common complaint about Armor Piercing Discarding Sabots in WWII is that they tended to get through the target, and unless striking fuel, ammo or some other vital part, their are less lethal than the standard rounds of the time that had some explosive filler that detonated insde the tank.
Under some circunstances, an APDS round can fail to destroy a target even if it has cleanly gone through it, but they are the exception not the norm. Besides, if an APDS breaches the armor of a tank today, it throws around the inside enough hot shrapnel and modern tanks are so stuffed with plenty of high caliber ammo, fuel, and other flammable stuff ( as are Battletech vehicles and to a lesser extent 'Mechs) that there's no real need for explosive or incendiary add ons.
If you really feel the need, you could add rules for API (Armor Piercing Incendiary) autocannon rounds, giving them a chance to ignite flammable stuff, and a +1 to the roll in the Determining Critical Hits table.
And I will not go into Depleted Uranium rounds, all you need to know is that they are lostech. Trust me in this one. Fortunately, because they would seriously mess with game balance.
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