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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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 Posted: 02-May-2002 18:55 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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just something to ponder.
vampire, you've done research on armor. would the present look of mechs, help to theorticly reduce or prevent damage?
whats your take?
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Broadly speaking, the more sloped is the armor, the better because effective armor thickness is increased for most shots, and in some circunstances causes shaped charge projectiles to bounce off harmlessly. It doesn't help if the shot strikes the armor at a perpendicular angle.
Curved armor is another different story. Some tanks have curved shapes because their armor has been cast in one piece, usually the turret, though some American tanks had a cast hull (M4 Sherman, M47 and M48 to name a few)
Steel casting is stronger than laminated steel plate, though the main reason is that casting does away with the weaknesses of the welded joints of armor plates. It was not uncommon in WWII for tanks breaking up in pieces when hit by a poweful explosion, even if the armor wasn't breached.
Composite armor adds more complication. It seems that it could only be made into flat plates, and that's why the Leopard 2 has such a boxy Panzer-vintage look. The Americans improved on this and that's why the M1 Abrams has sloping plates.
On Rarich comment on Russian tanks, well, it's true that armor casting is more difficult and expensive than laminated steel, but if you have the resources to pull it off, it doesn't have an impact on production.
Russian engineers haven't the technology and know how to replicate the Western Chobham composite armor. Their latest tank models use some sort of composite of their own, that is added in layers over their dome shaped steel turrets.
By the way, in Battletech fiction, they had this same problem. The composite armor of Battletech at first couldn't be easily produced into curved plates, and that's why the Leopard dropship has such a "flying brick" look.
In general, you could assume that the older the 'Mech design, the more boxy is going to look. Remember, the 'Mechs from TR0 3025 are the dregs of several centuries of warfare, that's way they have such a wildy differing appearance. For a trained eye, they are an exercise in anachronism. Case in point, the Zeus was an ancient design even before the start of the Successon Wars!
With certainty, the people of the 31st century aren't conscious of this, having get used to these uncongruities. But to an observer from the Star League days, the sight would be as visually shocking as, to use an analogy, seeing a Macedonian phalanx fighting against a Swiss pike block. Same weapon, same armor, same tactics, so alike but so different superficially.
But I digress, answering Vagabond original question: does curved armor plating mean anything?
The truthful answer is this: the artist is lazy!
Technical drawing is difficult, drawing accurately straight lines and angled surfaces is time and effort consuming, even if you use computer assistance, and the difficulty compunds when you have to draw the 'MEch from different angles and keepint the perspectives correct. For an underpaid, unskilled artist like Plog, it's much faster and easier to do freehand drawings, with lots of curves.
It takes talent and thought to draw something that looks like out of an engineer drawing board. Tanks and other military hardware owe their looks to function. The end result may look beautiful, ugly, menacing, or even plain silly.
Case in point, the Spitfire fighter of WWII, it has beautiful lines pleasant even to the untrained eye. I read it shares the same harmonic ratio of proportions as actress Liz Hurley face and the Partenon in the Acropolis.
But again I digress, back on track. What is the optimal armor shape?
Answer: a wedge. But it's very hard to get sloping armor on 'Mechs, due to technical constraints.
I'll elaborate on this at a later date, but due to the humanoid structure of most 'Mechs, it's very difficult to achieve sloped surfaces, the Thunderbolt and the Archer are good examples of sloping armor design (it's no coincidence that they have the heaviest armor of all 'Mechs that aren't assault class)
And note that they have quite unorthodox structural configurations, at least from the torso up.
The problem with achieving sloping in a 'Mech, is that 'Mechs are already unbalanced forwards, because most of the armor mass is placed in the front. An alternate configuration that achieves better protection is the Marauder or Catapult arrangement.
Fortunately, there are reasons that justify the employ or curved armor tiles, otherwise we would have very angular and boxy looking 'Mechs.
Broadly speaking, instead of recurring to flat armor plates in a vertical surface, yo can increase the effective armor thickness by using a curved armor section.
A clear example of this would be the cylindrical lower legs of the Hunchback, or the inward curve of the lower legs of the Warhammer and Rifleman.
And finally, aerodynamics play a part, too, a 'Mech as fast as the Locust benefits from reduced drag from an aerodynamic curved shape of its body , but this is specially important in the case of jump capable 'Mechs like the Wasp. We all know it has those smooth rounded surfaces and that cone between the legs because it was supposed to transform into a fighter, but by dint of an odd coincidence, it makes a lot of sense it was built that way. According to the 'Mech blueprints, the cone is just a covering for the reactor cooling fins, but considering that the reason behind jump jets is making orbital drops, that cone strcuture would help a lot in improving the airflow of the 'Mech in free fall. A heavier 'Mech like the Wolverine can fall like a brick using the brute power of jump jets to control the descent, but the much lighter Wasp would need that aerodynamic edge to help with attitude during descent.
So much to think and write about, and so little time and space, I'm tired and my brain is not working properly, so I'll quit. This certainly makes for an in depth essay for the Halstead Station library ( shameless self promotion plug 
http://rt000pui.eresmas.net/Battletech/Jump-point.html
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 19:09 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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Why was this turned into a new topic instead of being placed in the thread from which you quote from?
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 19:12 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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This is definitly a new topic: Armor Function!
To add on to what Vampire said, but to look at from a different perspective.
One thing I have also noticed about space design, is that there is a tendancy for curved surfaces wherever possible.
I doubt the first space ships we build are going to be needle shapped or boxed shape, but more along the line of big spheres. Why? The spherical shape would deflect particles in space, and a sphere has greater space inside then a square. Just an interesting note.
Raven!
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 20:19 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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On 2002-05-02 19:09, chihawk wrote:
Why was this turned into a new topic instead of being placed in the thread from which you quote from?
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The real answer: because I'm fond of the spotlight 
You surely know it's an habit of mine to start new threads to help signaling the topic to people that haven't noticed the previous thread and placing spin offs unrelated to the original topic where they rightfully belong.
The original question was about artwork. This topic is much more complex and broad than that.
So please keep to bartending and let me do the editorial comment
[just kidding folks]
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: Spain
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 20:35 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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One thing I have also noticed about space design, is that there is a tendancy for curved surfaces wherever possible.
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Well, if satelites are cylinders, it's because they have to conform to the shape of the rocket that puts them in orbit!
The Space shuttle has curved surfaces for reduced aerodynamic friction when reentering atmosphere.
And there's no connection, but rounded ceilings and walls in the space station avoids you injurng yourself against sharp angles and corners while floating around in zero-G!
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I doubt the first space ships we build are going to be needle shapped or boxed shape, but more along the line of big spheres. Why? The spherical shape would deflect particles in space, and a sphere has greater space inside then a square. Just an interesting note.
Raven!
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Mmmmm, Raven, Battletech Dropships are spheroid in shape for those reasons, maximum armor protection for minimum volume (of the armor) that is. Maximum fields of fire for defensive weapons and maximized internal volume.
Plus the curved shape eases aerodynamic resistance in reentry, though the turbulence of a spherical ship like the Union must be atrocious. I bet everybody in a Union gets pretty shaken in a descent. The Overlord with tis ovoid form has better airflow qualities. Less turbulence and wobbling when descending, less drag when ascending.
I don't understand what you say of a spheric shape helping deflect particles, care to explain?
In Battletech Warships can't be spheres because they are built around the K-F drive wich is needle like and long.
Damn, another spin off.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 21:18 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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To explain my comment on particles. Space isn't empty as i'm sure everyone here knows, it is full of a lot of tiny micrometerorites. These can cause a lot of damage.
However, if you curve your hull, you can limit their ability to get a solid impact and they might deflect rather then take the impact (which it can't).
I agree that there are a lot of praticle internal and external reasons for spherical shapes (as seen in BattleShip dropships). Thats what makes them so advantegous and when people today begin building space ships i'm sure they'll be round too.
now for warships which have the KF drive, they should be made like ovals, still curved for whatever protection can be grabbed, and able to support the KF drive. Sorta like a nuclear submarine!
Raven, who doesn't know anything about hull design and architecture so any mistakes are purely his own stupidity!
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 22:32 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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One thing I have also noticed about space design, is that there is a tendancy for curved surfaces wherever possible.
I doubt the first space ships we build are going to be needle shapped or boxed shape, but more along the line of big spheres. Why? The spherical shape would deflect particles in space, and a sphere has greater space inside then a square. Just an interesting note.
Raven!
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I think they will be like uncovered skyscrapers. Big structures requiring strength, but since they will not be expected to land (small craft do that), why waste material on streamlining. I think you will have designs that generate artificial gravity by some sort of rotation, the whole ship is the gravdeck. smaller ships would be thrusting all the way, so they would get gravity that way.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 02-May-2002 22:48 Post subject: Armor and Battlemech appearance |
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Sausage and Cylider shapes would probably predominate for the Cargo ships. Easy to make and a spin could make some gravity.
The warships would probably have shapes to match their missions. I never did understand what the artists were thinking when drawing Warships. The shapes just don't seem functional. Where are the launch ports for the big missiles and autocannon? the Batteries/Bays of lasers and stuff? Galactica was a flying design with "gravity" influence, but at least you could see where things were. The Cylon Base ships made more sense for a spaceship, they had a spin axis for gravity if it was needed.
Star trek ships do not make sense. The Earthforce ships in B5 try to, so they rate better.
I think all the ships would be more symetrical, The McKennas for instance should look more "furry" with towers providing support and attachment for all the NPPC's and surface area for heat dissipation. A 3 dimensional armored star, like supermans space crib. The ships using lots of autocannon would be big spheres with craters all over the place.
as it is they are the same old 2d crap that has been turned out by sci-fi artists for decades now. Just barely better than the needle like rocketships that became passe' in the 60's. ( the smiley face and flower children killed them)
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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