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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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 Posted: 19-Aug-2002 12:13 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-08-19 04:59, Vampire wrote:
Did you read my explanation, Gangrene?
It seems like no one is paying me attention *sigh*
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I did read your explanation. I just wasn't out there to defend it; that's your job. 
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But then, Star League tech and superior DOES have guided missiles. I suggest reading again TR0 3025 , 3050, Max Tech and the like.
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Not very good ones, though. They all rely too heavily on the user, IMO. The best set of rules are for the TAG weapons, because just like real life if you lose the designation laser your missile or bomb will become inaccurate.
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. . .And don't know why you complain so much. What rules do you suggest?
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You're a funny guy.
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-Game balance. Streak LRMs would be a terror.
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I don't think Streak LRM's would have much impact on the game. They don't increase the chance of hitting by any means, just the number of missiles that hit. Since the missiles don't do punch damage I don't think a Streak 20 would surpass the gauss rifle for effectiveness.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-08-19 12:14 ]
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2002 12:16 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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I think he means making the tourney-approved L2.
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Gangrene
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Major Dan
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 18
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2002 16:11 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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[quote]
On 2002-08-19 12:13, Gangrene wrote:
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On 2002-08-19 04:59, Vampire wrote:
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But then, Star League tech and superior DOES have guided missiles. I suggest reading again TR0 3025 , 3050, Max Tech and the like.
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Not very good ones, though. They all rely too heavily on the user, IMO. The best set of rules are for the TAG weapons, because just like real life if you lose the designation laser your missile or bomb will become inaccurate.
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-Game balance. Streak LRMs would be a terror.
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I don't think Streak LRM's would have much impact on the game. They don't increase the chance of hitting by any means, just the number of missiles that hit. Since the missiles don't do punch damage I don't think a Streak 20 would surpass the gauss rifle for effectiveness.
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*stretch* Man I've been away for a while.
Gangrene, I think you have a huge under(maybe over)estimation of todays ECM. Few vehicles/buildings use anything related to ECM, and those that do (mostly aircraft) do succeed in spoofing missles. The problem with using laser-guided missles exclusively are multiple:
- Like you pointed out, if your Tagger loses the target, your shots were wasted.
- Cost
- Size of the rocket/missle
- extra training for the Tagger (takes more training to hold an invisible red dot on a moving target while youre moving than it does to point and click a normal laser)
- Increased Battlefield Risk for the Tagger
Using dumb rockets (or as Vamp pointed out, rockets using a firing solution or similar guidance) makes much more sense. Missles today are majorly expensive. Firing 120 missles in one minute is not something that any military takes lightly. In BTech, most mercenary companies fire at least that much per battle, and may have multiple battles before the contract is over.
Streak 20's are a terror. I took an IS support company and gave them Clan equipment. (simple replacement.. ERPPC for PPC and such. Extra weight went to armor and DHS usually) It had 2 Archers, 1 Atlas, and 2 Crusaders. Those 2 Archers were deadly; at least as deadly as the Atlas. Every time one of the launchers hits it causes a piloting roll. Using 4/5's and 3/4's that equates to more than a few falls. Add indirect fire, and no minimum range, plus the always fun Golden BB shots (2's and 12's..) and prepare to be scared.
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Shadowking
Kell Hounds
Captain
Joined: 22-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 365
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 07:30 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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| I don't think streaks can fire indirectly.
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Major Dan
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 18
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2002 19:14 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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On 2002-10-15 07:30, Shadowking wrote:
I don't think streaks can fire indirectly.
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Doh.. that just goes to show why I should not leave my Master Rules at someone elses house when posting things like that.
It never came up in the battle (he picked mostly open terrain.. silly guy..)
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2002 12:33 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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Ok, I think it is about time the BIGGEST Issues about guided missles be brought up.
1)Size
2)Cost
Before talking about these two points, I must say that Vampire raised a lot of interesting and valid points which really got me thinking about these two points. From what I can gather form what people ar talking about in terms of guidance, I will try to use two real world example, which I am familiar with: the US NAvy's Harpoon and Tomahawk missle systems
Size:
Guidance Equipment takes up space, sensor equipment takes up space. Anyone ever wonder why the US Navy's Harpoon or Tomahawk missles are so Big; Other than the fact it need to be big enough to carry enough fuel to be effective? The senors, guidance, and control systems, take up a fairly large part of the missle. Also, factor in the fact that you want the missle to go so fast and it already ways a lot, so it needs a big engine, making the missle even bigger. But what about miniturization of computer components and such you say? Components small enough to to fit in a missle the size of a Harpoon or Tomahawk, are VERY Espensive, Which brings me to my next point.
Cost:
For simplicities sake, let's say cost can be derived from 2 major areas:
1) Minitaturization of Components
2) The Technology involved for the sensors, guidance and control surfaces
I'm no scientist, but I would think that the sensors and guidance used for a guided missle would be fairly expensive, especially when dealing with fire and forget weapons, which can adjust their flight paths mid-flight. There is also the cost of the control systems for hte missle that make it possible for hte missle to change course traveling at high speeds. THe materials used for such surfaces and components, must be extremely durable, able to withstand high torque and sheer forces which act upon them in flight.
The software and hardware needed for truely smart weapons is by no means cheap, and like most things on the missle extremely sensitive. If you want to have the ULTIMATE Smart weapon, which has more than one or even two guidance systems, it is going to have to be big and expensive.
So you put all these thigns together, and you have a large expensive peice of munitions, that can only be used once.
AS it is today, granted they are medium and longe range missles, these missles are huge. I think it is safe to say that a single modern Guided missle (particularly the Harpoon and Tomahawk) if stood on their end next to a mech would reach anywhere from about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the mech. And that is just ONE missle.
The closest thing in BTech to these were the Thunderbolt Missle System, which I first Saw in the Tactical HAndbook, which is if I remember correctly, no longer legal. (BTW What ever did happen to the Thunderbolt System? Was it ever revived, reintroduced in another book?)
As for ECM/ECCM systems. THe US Navy's ECM/ECCM system is very large, capable of defending shipboard sensors, as well as homing missles. And one of the big draw backs to it is the fact that in order to be good at its job, it requires a large output of power in the active mode, which is the only way you really can defeat a missle. so again it all comes down to size vs. availabe space. Even a small Frigate is much bigger than the heaviest Assault Mech, and the frigate is already cramped. In short, Mechs are much to small to effectively mount a true guided missle system, of the variety that people seem to think they should have in 3025 and later.
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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Hurlbut
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Corporal
Joined: 15-Oct-2002 00:00
Posts: 136
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2002 12:48 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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Thunderbolt missiles are still used, they are Lvl 3 and you can find them in Maximum Tech. Thing is they are easily shoot down by AMS and LAMS because their fire angle are more direct, flatter than the LRMs that arc over in a high angle.
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Star Captain Alexander, XO
Exsanguine, Aegis Class Heavy Cruiser
The Naval Reserve of Clan Blood Spirit
[ This Message was edited by: Hurlbut on 2002-10-16 12:49 ]
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A GREEN Dragon Lies Beneath!
I took the Inner Dragon online quiz and found out I
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2002 15:06 Post subject: RE: Missile hits |
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Not to mention that a Thunderbolt is a large target for that little machine gun.
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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