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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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 Posted: 06-Mar-2002 02:33 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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While attending the Monte Diablo event I played on the Davion side with a man who said that he had not played Btch in years. He was very anti-Stackpole and didn't like a lot of FASA's later work. His biggest complaint was that FASA just released too muh junk in order to sell TROs. In short, there are just too many mechs for his taste.
I have to agree. I wish they had just stayed with updating the original TRO 3025 mechs. They did not need to add hundreds more. It used to be that someone could spit a mech designation out to me and I could spit out a rough set of stats right back. So if someone came along and said "Wolftrap" (ya'll remember that mech?) I could bust out with "LB-10X, LRM10, two medium lasers . . .". I can't really do that anymore except for a select few. If someone comes along and says "Starslayer", I'm like "the what?"
The game really could use les mechs. I thought the whole idea of omnimechs was to make it so that only a few generic chassis were needed. I hope after 3067 FanPro considers this and stops making wads of unwanted machines.
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Gangrene
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 07:40 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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The StarSlayer is a wonderful and useful Mech. I've used it to many successful sorties.
I just think of all the different mech as choices, nothing more. The more choices the better.
Sir Henry
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 08:08 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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I like the new mechs coming out. Sure you may not be able to snap off their stats, but you can't deny the excitement generated the first time you come upon a new design in battle. As much as I love playing/playing against the old standard tried and true mechs, they do become stale at a certain point. Using the new designs and weapon suites makes a player alter or tweak their tactics, keeping the game fresh. Plus new designs mean new minis......can never have enough new minis!
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 10:38 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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The main concern is that the emphesis is just as you said: it comes down to minis and new fancy gadgets. The emphesis leaves the idea of tactics, cunning and skill and just degenerates into a slug fest.
For the past three years of my almost 8 years of playing batteltech, I have not played a single game where tactics have become a serious factor in the game.
On the other hand my new game, Cry Freedom, has a sever tactical element to it. And the game always comes down to who successfully manuvered in the first few rounds of the battle. Only once have I seen a person manage to blast there way out of a trap and that was because the attacking player lost sight of his objective and got bogged down, letting the defense player take up the offensive (it helped that the defending player also got lucky on the dice roles and the attacker had a miserable streak of luck).
Raven, pushing his game!
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8072
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 10:43 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-06 10:38, Raven! wrote:
For the past three years of my almost 8 years of playing batteltech, I have not played a single game where tactics have become a serious factor in the game.
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Then you missed several great opportunities at TotalCon.
Nearly every event Horhiro runs is tactic based. Every event I run (excluding Most Pit) is tactics based. Pinhead and Jeff (known as Chandra to many of you) each ran a great tactics based scenario.
There are some great ones to play out there--which is why I've always wondered why people don't post more scenarios.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 10:56 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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I should also have pointed out Mordel had a couple good scenarios too---I was IMing with him when I replied and for some reason thought I'd already mentioned it.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 11:29 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-06 10:38, Raven! wrote:
The main concern is that the emphesis is just as you said: it comes down to minis and new fancy gadgets. The emphesis leaves the idea of tactics, cunning and skill and just degenerates into a slug fest.
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Every BattleTech games eventually boils down to a slugfest. It is your solid tactics however that allow you to increase your odds of surviving that slugfest.
The player I like playing with least is the one that thinks his tactics are going to let him win without being shot at or hit. I'ts the type of player looking forever for the perfect move(which never exists or comes). Certainly as the game progesses and "random" events happen, your tactics will adapt.
Your tactics will obviously change with the situation, type/amount of mechs you're balttling. Mechs can still be generally catagorized however as "Fire Support", "Brawler", "Harraser", etc, no matter which tech/era they are.
I for one like some new designs and am thrilled at the challenge of adapting my tactics to overcome their "surprises".
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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ICER
Clan Hell's Horses
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1663
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 12:27 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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Well put Horhiro. I fully agree
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 15:27 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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maybe, but the way BattleTech is set up everyone moves in close and just starts slugging. ANd you're right i didn't play any btech games at TotalCon cause i didn't have time. Thats another problem.
And i'm not someone who always looks for the perfect shot either, those are annoying! (i played with a guy that took him 3 hours to move one unit, mind you it was 24 mechs per side). Annoying.
However, when you have each player with only one unit and a BV limit everyone always aims for big end assaults, which just gets werrisome. Mechs are the focus of the game (don't deny it!). and its just tiring and boring i suppose.
My game limits that cause there are just so many ways to disrupt strategy that you have to be fast and mobile and fluid.
Of course you all missed the point that i was just plugging for my game and you were all supposed to give me your credit card numbers to order the game.
Raven!
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 15:38 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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I here I was thinking your game was going to be free! At least for us Mordellians. BTW are you paying royalties to all the guys who provided alternate rules? 
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 20:07 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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maybe, but the way BattleTech is set up everyone moves in close and just starts slugging.
Yep, that's Battletech in a nutshell. But as Horhiro pointed out, the strategy is getting to that point with the best advantage.
ALL tactical games are this way.
And i'm not someone who always looks for the perfect shot either, those are annoying! (i played with a guy that took him 3 hours to move one unit, mind you it was 24 mechs per side). Annoying.
You only get a couple minutes when I'm playing before I start making fun of you for moving so slowly.
However, when you have each player with only one unit and a BV limit everyone always aims for big end assaults, which just gets werrisome. Mechs are the focus of the game (don't deny it!). and its just tiring and boring i suppose.
Mechs are supposed to be King of the Battlefield, and they are.
My game limits that cause there are just so many ways to disrupt strategy that you have to be fast and mobile and fluid.
You'll be turning off many players if they're forced to actually THINK while playing.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 22:26 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-06 20:07, chihawk wrote:
You'll be turning off many players if they're forced to actually THINK while playing.
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Crap, Raven just lost the whole Games Workshop crowd (j/k!)
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-03-06 22:27 ]
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Dead-Fish
Free Worlds League
Master Sergeant
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 163
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 22:38 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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I like the fact that there so many mechs. it makes it seem more like real life, cuz youed have tons of different companies each trying to get their foot into the door each with their own design(even tho its the same as everyone elses). I would say its best compaired to the auto companies of today
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Mar-2002 23:31 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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It may be like four or five arms manufacturers trying to sell their wares, but no government in Real Life is going to buy half a dozen of one tank from Ford and then half a dozen from Vickers etc...the logistical nightmare that would cause would have heads rolling faster then quartermasters can be trained.
The idea of one mech per weight class is fine, three or four is pushing it. If the Archer is a decent firesupport mech, why would House Davion want the Catapult? Both are support mechs, and the only difference is 5 tons of mass...
Right now we have roughly close to 200 plus mechs running around of all sizes and roles, and this doesn't take into acount the other 500 pluse custom mechs made by the players.
So when is it going to be enough is to many? When we see a new name with the same weapons as the Warhammer or the Dart or the Pillager or the Mad Cat?
The Clans have their omnis why would they need anything else? Second line has non-omnis, since they won't be seeing heavy combat, so why would the extra omnis we have seen pop up? Why not a MKII version of the Loki or Mad Cat? Instead we get the Black Lanner and the Caludron Born...
The Inner Sphere starts to go over to Omnis in 3058, yet there are more new NONE omnis coming out. Again if the modular idea is better then why keep building non-modular mechs?
I think we have way to many mechs coming out way to fast. Each FM had new mechs and new tech, now I don't know about most of you, but it does take time to use ALL of the mechs from the other TRs heck there were still a few mechs from the TR3055 book that my group hasn't even used yet, same with TROs 3058/60.
Maybe after this TR we can get a breather on the mechs (that is until MS puts out another Mechwarrior shoot'em up...)and allow us all to get caught up them and have a chance to use them. Plus, the rapid firing of mechs out one after the other doesn't give the miniature folks a chance to get a mini out for each mech...how many are we still waiting on because oh wait new TR...folks are gonna want these now...we will get back to the other's later...guess what later is here..
So in my opinion, TR3067 should be the last TRO for at least 2 years real time, no new mechs need to come out, that way it will allow folks to get all of the mechs that are out there into their game, use them, learn how to use them, something that was lost after the TR3058 came out, and then once folks are starting to point out ALL the faults and rebuilding them ALL from the ground up then, put a new batch of mechs, so as to keep the folks on their toes.
I spent some time watching folks try to use mechs that they know about via reading the TROs but have never used before getting handed the mech at a convention. Depending on how long the game lasts the first 5 or 6 turns you watch them more or less wander around trying to get a feel for the mech, where if the mech was a Battlemaster or a Dervish or Rifleman or a Stinger, they would be running around slashing at the other side, fienging retreats, trying to flank the other side, not move at a walk and firing a few weapons to see what happens...
This mad rush to give new tech and new mechs is IMHO bogging the game down since the older mechs are pushed aside in favor of the new and some of the mechs don't get the chance to be used at all in most of the players games.
So I vote that there are too many and after this current TRO that is coming out we need a breather...
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Karagin
If you can strike few with many, you will thus minimize the number of those with whom you do battle.
[ This Message was edited by: Karagin on 2002-03-06 23:32 ]
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Rosenet
Federated Suns
Recruit
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 7
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| Posted: 07-Mar-2002 11:57 Post subject: Overflowing with mechs |
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Interesting thread. I've recently returned to BattleTech after an absence of a few years.
In regards to the too many mechs issue, I definitly agree. I'm a 3025 purist at heart, though but I do own the TRO '55 and '58. I've never used any of the mechs but I bought them to stay up to date. I hate that they're writing the unseen out of the BT universe. I started playing in '86 or '87 so the unseen formed my initial impressions of BT.
I'm joining a new campaign where I could choose any one 3055 or earlier mech for a command mech. After cracking open all the appropriate TROs I'm ending up where I started-a Marauder. Frankly I think the 3055 mechs are poorly designed and a pretty lame looking. I won't even start talking about monstrosities like the Barghest. What were they thinking?
As for the issue of tactics in BT I think a good BT game is not just a slugfest, but is chess-like in the importance of position. In my experience the person who wins a BT game is the person who forces hsi opponent to have worse to hit numbers then he has. Maximizing movement and terrain is critical to winning in BT. Of course better technology can make up for poor tactics, but in a game of even tech tactics become very important.
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