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Bodhi
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 22-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 18
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 Posted: 22-Sep-2003 04:30 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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I never really liked the XL engine, unless it was used to gain a significant speed boost. I don't really consider being able to go from 4/6 with a standard to a 5/8 with a XL to be worth the effort, cost, or increased vulnerability. It might be easier for salvage issues, but that's only good if you hold the battlefield at the end of the day.
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If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2003 07:49 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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I'd use them in lights to go 10/15. Not much anywhere else. To delicate... 
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Daphne Wilde
Star League Defense Force
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 19-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 425
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2003 15:14 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Try this for a clue. Figure the odds of an internal crit in the RT/LT and ask yourself Do you want the excess heat/chance and a engine hit? XL's are good for saving pounds but if'in you want to really screw up the folks trying to kill you. don't do what they expect. not running an XL and then informing your enemy that his hit didn't get an engine hit becouse of the lack of an XL will make him wonder what else you have up your sleave( If they are smart) or think you don't know what you are doing( If they are dumb). either way you get the advantage.
Lt.Col. Daphne Wilde
504 Para. 82 Div.
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Lt.Col.Daphne Wilde
504 Para. 82 Div.
Io
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2003 20:36 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Outdamnstanding. Love what you have done. The FLuff just rules.
So I take it you will have a web site with all of these designs? Are you going to do these designs in Heavy Metal and let people download? I know Ruger did a ton of these and so have I, but mine are in Mech Pro and the file is corrupt.
If you want I can see if we can dig some up with fluff and send them your way.
AWAD- Why did the Centurion get XL, when the Wolftrap is a copy?
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2003 20:41 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Quote:
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On 2003-09-22 04:30, Bodhi wrote:
I never really liked the XL engine, unless it was used to gain a significant speed boost. I don't really consider being able to go from 4/6 with a standard to a 5/8 with a XL to be worth the effort, cost, or increased vulnerability. It might be easier for salvage issues, but that's only good if you hold the battlefield at the end of the day.
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I mostly agree with you here but 5/8 is a world of difference from 4/6. With 5/8 you can get a +2/+3 move mod, white 4/6 is +1/+2. Rivers are no longer the horrible nightmare. Also if you have mainly short range, you need 5/8, I move forward 8, you back 4. I cover the distance in half the time.
AWAD- 5/8 is the best balanced movement, this is why Clanner heavies are a pain
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Bodhi
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 22-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 18
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2003 20:59 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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I don't know that it is a world of difference. Sure a 5/8 can eak out a +2/+3 if running in a straight line in flat, open terrain as opposed to a +1/+2, but that doesn't really happen all that often does it? Turns and trees slow you down.
I'll agree that having a 5/8 speed is better than having a 4/6, but it isn't worth the additional 4 or 6 engine crits in my opinion.
Ciao
Bodhi
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2003 00:19 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Yeah, but those turns and trees also usually bring a 4/6 down to a +0/+1 modifier, Ja?
To get a +1 on a 4/6, you have 2 mp left for turning/terraing, while to get a +2 on a 5/8, you have 3 MP left for turns/manuevers.
That one modifier may not seem like much, until you sit down and figure it out.
Let's say, 3 gunner + You Ran (+2) + Enemy Move 5 hexes (+2) + Medium Range (+2) = 9's to hit, or 10 out of every 36 shots will hit.
Meanwhile the 4/6 is looking at 3 gunner + Enemy Ran (+2) + your move 4 hexes (+1) + Medium Range (+2) = 8's to hit, or 15 out of every 36 shots hits.
In other words, at medium range with 3 gunners, the 5/8 is likely to only get hit 66%% of the time it can hit the 4/6 back. Drop this to short range (21/36 vs 26/36) it's not as bad, but add in a few light woods, make it normal inner sphere pilots (4/6), and you can rapidly reach targeting numbers well above 9, where that one difference becomes enormous. (You are twice as likely to roll a 10 or higher than you are to roll a 11 or higher)
The numbers just aren't with the 4/6. On top of which the 5/8 can walk in a lot of situations the 4/6 has to run. That changes it's own movement modifier to a mere +1.
I use a little chart to determine movement to armor needed. The first column is walk MP, the second column is how much armor should be considered equal. The numbers were put together by figuring out the odds of being hit at 'optimum' move (-3 mp), the chances of reaching optimum move, the penalty to your own targeting for the movement (especially with jump, which below 7mp makes it a wash)
Code:
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MP +% w/jump
2/3 0% 0%
3/5 5% 5%
4/6 10% 10%
5/8 20% 25%
6/9 25% 25%
7/11 35% 50%
8/12 40% 50%
9/14 45% 50%
10/15 50% 100%
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So, what does it all mean? In my way of figuring things a Fully armored 100 ton 3/5/0 would get a rating of 322. (305*1.05), while a 5/8 75 tonner would get a rating of 288. If that 75 tonner was only a 4/6, it would only get a armor rating under my system of 265.
When speed can be as good as armor, an XL is worth putting in, especially to get a heavy up to 5/8. As has been said, it's why Clan heavies are such a pain, as they are often the equal of or even superior to Inner Sphere assaults.
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and it might have meant a thing or two
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Bodhi
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 22-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 18
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2003 01:43 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Not getting hit in the first place is the best armor of all, I agree. I just don't think that adding in an XL gives enough of a speed boost to the heavies and assaults to justify the added vulnerability of an XL. That +1 might come in handy, but sooner or later that XL equipped 'Mech is going to take that nasty hit and then it's vaya con dios...
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If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2039
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| Posted: 24-Sep-2003 18:15 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Quote:
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On 2003-09-23 20:36, AWAD wrote:
I know Ruger did a ton of these
AWAD- Why did the Centurion get XL, when the Wolftrap is a copy?
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And I lost most of them when I wiped my harddrive a few years back... 
As for the Centurion...point, but one's Drac, one's FC/FS...
Ruger
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Daphne Wilde
Star League Defense Force
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 19-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 425
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2003 00:11 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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And one is a joke and the other isn't.
you figure out wich is wich.
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Lt.Col.Daphne Wilde
504 Para. 82 Div.
Io
? & ?
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2003 07:35 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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We know which is a joke. It gets LAAF'ed at....
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2003 18:22 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Reading Deathshadow's post reminded of a MAJOR DESIGN SCREWUP with the Exterminator. Deathshadow mention building the same mech at 5 tons heavier. To me the Exterminator is 5 Tons TOO Heavy, you can build the exact same mech at 5t tons less and have free tonnage and crits left over. THe only up side to the actual weight ofthe Exterminator is its physical Damage. Me, personally like to avoid physical combat most of the time, if the opportunity presents itself for a a kick to the Head because I'm 1 elevation level higher and I can move into kick him on the punch chart, I'll give it a try. THough I don;t actually think I've gotten to roll the kick yet, as my oppenent has gone done during weapons fire phase anyway.
Well I jsut wanted to throw that out there as well, if your looking for speed try dropping 5 tons and look at what that does for your speed options. Granted you loose some internal structure and armor capability, but that is made up in speed.
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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