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Kiris65
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 17-Dec-2003 00:00
Posts: 371
Location: Panama
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 Posted: 22-Dec-2003 17:52 Post subject: How much heat? |
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I don't know if this is the correct place to start a discussion about heat. I have read a couple of mech design threads and they all look good to me. I would like to start designing mechs and post, so they can be constructively criticized. But I have a question regarding heat. Personally I like my mechs to run as cool as possible, but am willing to trade some heat sinks to put a PPC or LL in order to get some respect on the battlefield.
How much each of you are willing to trade?
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 17:58 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Well, I think personally there are a lot of ways to build a 'mech. Some play it very safe and have enough heat sinks to move the maximum and fire all their wepons without generating heat. This is a waste in my opinion.
I prefer to mix it up when possible. For example, I love the Penetrator. Fire 6 MPLAS or 2 ERLLAS, but not all of them. And even doing that you still generate a couple of heat. One group of weapons is for long range sniping. The other in-close combat. So they have their purposes.
As a general rule of thumb, if I can get the heat sinks and weapons/movement heat within 2-3 of each other, I'll take it. That's ideal and let's you generate heat on a controlled scale.
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Kiris65
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 17-Dec-2003 00:00
Posts: 371
Location: Panama
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 18:10 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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In other words, you are comfortable if you can go "all out" for 2-3 turns.
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Anata no gosenzo sama ni kao o awase rare masuka! - (Get ready to meet your ashamed ancestors!)
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 20:10 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I personally don't think you're playing battletech the way it was meant to be unless you're rolling for shutdowns and ammo explosions a few times during the match. 
That's why I love the the old Davion Rifleman-4D varient... 2 PPCs and 2 Large Lasers...only 15 Heat Sinks. Now that's a "real" Warrior's ride! 
These newer "Alpha-strike" while jumping and no overheating at all designs make me sick. I think double heats sinks changed this game entirely. Hell, who needs tactics when you can jump and fire everything every turn?
I'll never forget the first time I played a Clan duel involving two heavies. We played cat and mouse for two turns using the Factory map. On turn three we turned the corner of a building, squared off, open up and destroyed each other. Boy was that fun 
I quickly returned to 3025 tech, where you had to wear down your opponents, actually "manouver", yes I said manouver your forces, beat them down by seeking out crits over many rounds, and finally squashing the cockroach designs like the Grasshopper over an entire evening.....but I digress.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 20:46 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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For L1 designs a little heat inefficiency is not a problem, and even expected. For designs with DHS I always prefer them to be heat neutral or just a little inefficient.
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Gangrene
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 21:31 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Correct, and that's what my comments were based off of. With DHS I prefer a little inefficiency. But with L1, forget it. You're gonna be getting those turns where you generate 7 or more excess heat a turn easy.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 21:46 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Never had any problems designing a mech that could heat up to +13 at any turn...
Always figured it was up to the pilot to be smarter than the mech and determine whether to heat up or not..
Pin
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2003 22:07 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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| Way I look at is the extra damage hurts your opponent more than the extra heat hurts you. Sure, you have to use discipline most of the time, but the extra firepower comes in handy when you need it.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 23-Dec-2003 00:55 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I'm willing to trade some heat for guns, but there's one thing I try to avoid. Never, ever build a mech that can cause itself an ammo explosion on the first round.
It's OK to risk an ammo explosion if you're going to go down anyway, but otherwise avoid it. Risking shutdown isn't as bad, but do check the situation carefully first. If there's anyone close by who could fire at your shut-down head, at least fire all guns at him.
Yes, I've lost mechs to heat. Once detonated a Phoenix Hawk by firing too many guns, but the situation was desperate. And I've had a few shut-down mechs destroyed by enemy fire too.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Dec-2003 13:04 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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It Depends. If it is going to be a brawler with 3x myomer and a weapon, then I arrange for a weapons mix to do the right heat consistently. If I am looking for a "drive by guy" then I design the wepons for max punch after max move is factored.
General rules of thumb:
If I have to roll more than 4+ to avoid shutdown after run and alpha strike, then it is running too hot. I will have to fire a few guns every turn so I need a margin to allow up to 6+ after an alpha for emergencies.
Avoid the ammo heat roll at all costs, eliminate ammo weapons if you have to. I have had too many mechs brew up on me to want to play with that.
give a 3x mech the ability to go -8 hp with a single volley and a way to maintain that level at all weapon ranges. a 7 heat generation fire pattern when running and a 9 heat generation pattern when walking.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Dec-2003 21:50 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Back in my early days, I prefer the "alpha-babies", 'Mechs that simply fired all weapons, all the time. But in my *cough* old age I've grown rather attached to the variable firepower designs...some of my favorites that have serious heat trouble are the Stalker and the Firestarter...I love Firestarters...
I nearly took out 3 'Mechs with one very holed Firestarter before finally detonating the MG ammo. But still, what a glorious battle...
Personally, I don't eliminate ammo weapons. I love'em too much. I just add CASE. And I always like running slightly lighter on heatsinks if I can get several range brackets and weapon types.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 24-Dec-2003 11:47 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I have some of each type of mech that I use. After a while I figured out that there is no reason to alpha strike on everyturn. Most of the time in the battle half of the weapons are either out of range or else the modifiers are to the point where you cannot hit on anything less than a 12. So I have started creating mechs that are more versatle and have both short and long range weapons. That is one of the reasons I never leave home without my Altas. Long, Short, or inbetween it's gonna kill you. So why waste the space adding extra heat sinks so that it can fire everything in one turn?
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 25-Dec-2003 16:33 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Cool mechs are fine, but every notice, most are very single mission based, like dueling?
Warm mechs are fine, but really hot is a bad flaw, you just are wating space and firepower. The old Awesome is kind of a close example, fire 3/3/2 and you are fine. Or something that can get very hot if you alpha strike, but have all kinds of range bands. That is a problem of your own making. Yeah the oppeant was at range 6, but did you have to fire 2 LRM 15s, 2 LL, 2 SRM, and 2ML? or could you pull back a little.
So anything that adds more than 6 heat, without movement, and is single range type (long, medium, short) is not smart. Anything that adds 14 heat with an Alpha Strike that can do all ranges is to much. You all but cripple yourself.
AWAD- Grand Dragon is a great mech to run and learn heat management skills
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Dec-2003 11:25 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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AWAD I think explained it the best. Heat is mainly a factor when it limits the effectiveness.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Dec-2003 15:41 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I agree that you do not have to have heat sinks to cover ALL the weapons, just enough to handle what you need for your heavier hitting range band. If you design your mech right, you can get excellent long and short range firepower. The transition area is where you have to watch yourself. There is a temptation to let loose with everything that's in range . Of course a good warrior can exploit this area, balancing his heat in the edge of shutdown, and get devastating results.
A mech that can handle all the heat a green mechwarrior can generate at "Best" range, allows them to survive long enough to learn the heat scale. While a vetran or elite pilot can milk some serious firepower out of the same design by riding the heat curve.
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