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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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 Posted: 29-Dec-2003 07:26 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I don't like wearing Parka's in the Cockpit. 
If I have a heat problem then that's my fault. Heat is a factor, but managing it is the challenge. It shouldn't be a major factor in the selection or usage of a Mech.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 29-Dec-2003 08:33 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I like to 'bracket' heat on my designs. What that means is I carry enough heat sinks to dissapate my long range weapons, but as I close I can bring more and more weapons to bear by cycling off the larger ones.
With a lot of Inner Sphere weapons this makes a lot of sense, since many of the long range weapons like the standard PPC or LRM's have a 'minimum range' meaning that if your carrying an LRM-20 and two medium lasers, the need to fire both at the same time is highly dubious.
A good example would be a 'mech with an ERPPC and and LRM-15, two medium lasers with three tons free. The ten double sinks would allow you to run and fire your long range stuff and only build 2 heat, which is acceptable. The question becomes, do you mount the remaining 3 DHS so you can alpha strike for minimal heat? For me, the answer is no. The two mediums as is are a heat swap for the LRM. I'd probably put a trio of ERML in, as a heat swap for the PPC. They have the potential to deal 50% more damage, spread the damage around a little giving you a chance to exploit any holes the PPC may have opened at range, and let you roll to hit three times instead of once. While that may not sound like an advantage, it is. Rolling three times per turn makes you three times as likely to deal SOME damage that turn.
Remember, the game is not always who can deal the most damage, it is who can deal the most damage first. More to-hit rolls increased your chances of dealing damage FIRST.
I have very rarely seen an 'Alpha Baby' (a derrogatory term for a 'mech that can fire all its weapons for no heat) that could not be improved by carrying less sinks and more close-in firepower. Carrying the extra sinks just so you can alpha strike your small lasers is just stupid. Carry more small guns instead of the sinks, and rotate out a big gun. Use the big stuff to open the holes at range, then use the small stuff up close to exploit those openings.
It's why unlike most people I fire slug from the LBX FIRST, saving the cluster rounds for once I have an armor breach on my opponant.
[ This Message was edited by: deathshadow on 2003-12-29 08:35 ]
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Dec-2003 12:45 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Another thing to balance with the heat, is to make sure that your weapons are spread out through the mech. The last thing you want is an 'alpha strike' mech and lose all of your weapons when your right torso gets blown off. It is a great feeling to be running aroung with half of a mech and still be able to deal serious damege each round. So the heat scale can taper off near the end of the battle as you lose existing weapons. A mech with only a med laser left can seem like an annoyance, but it is still a serious tactical tool. So why waste space with extra heat sinks when that one extra weapon can mean the difference between life and death?
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Dec-2003 12:50 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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[quote]
On 2003-12-29 08:33, deathshadow wrote:
I like to 'bracket' heat on my designs. What that means is I carry enough heat sinks to dissapate my long range weapons, but as I close I can bring more and more weapons to bear by cycling off the larger ones.
Remember, the game is not always who can deal the most damage, it is who can deal the most damage first. More to-hit rolls increased your chances of dealing damage FIRST.
It's why unlike most people I fire slug from the LBX FIRST, saving the cluster rounds for once I have an armor breach on my opponant.
[/quote]
Wow, I find myself agreeing with a Snake! Thats the way I typically think of fighting most of my mechs. Have big guns to blow off chunks or, better, kill the enemy at range. While having Lots of smaller stuff to exploit damage/ breaches at closer ranges.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 29-Dec-2003 18:15 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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| Really, I think heat is often one of the most important factors in using a 'mech. Your heat capability is your endurance; run up too much heat too early, and your options will be severly limited later on.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
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| Posted: 29-Dec-2003 18:16 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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| You're not the only one surprised to find yourself in agreement with somebody.
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 10:44 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Quote:
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On 2003-12-29 12:45, Oafman wrote:
Another thing to balance with the heat, is to make sure that your weapons are spread out through the mech. The last thing you want is an 'alpha strike' mech and lose all of your weapons when your right torso gets blown off. |
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Placement is indeed important as well. I personally like to take the weapons ranges into consideration as well. I like to put my big-long range firepower in the torso, so that the banks of smaller weapons are available for 'reach-arounds'... Since most long range weapons have minimum ranges, and you usually only need to fire behind you if an enemy is up close, putting the long range stuff in the arms doesn't make a lot of sense.
Additionally, are you more annoyed at having a bunch of tiny weapons blown off, or your primary big gun? I don't know about you guys, but I lose arms all the time and remain functional, while these days with XL engines you rarely remain upright losing a side torso. That said always keep a good mix spread out, because you never know what location your going to lose.
Which brings me to a final point on sinks, crit soaking. If you are carrying volatile ammo/hardware, mounting slightly more sinks than you need, or making the 'mech smaller so less sinks fit inside the engine can often make you more survivable, even with less armor. If you have an IS XL engine eating up 3 crits, an LRM-10 eating up two and a ton of ammo, with nothing else in that location, you have a 4 in 6 chance of something BAD happening should you take a critical hit in that spot. 50/50 on a engine hit and 1 in 6 of the ammo explosion. If you can plug two double heat sinks into that location though, the chance of an engine hit drops to 25%, while the chance of a critical getting the ammo slides all the way down to 1 in 12!
As you can see, critical placement of the excess sinks can be VERY important. If I'm carrying volitile ammo, I do my damndest to try and plug every other critical in that location with non-volitile items. ESPECIALLY if it's an IS XL engined design. I'd rather add an ERSL to plug the bottom crit on a XL engined design, than add CASE. CASE on an Inner Sphere XL does nothing other than give your enemy salvage... If instead putting a small laser in will drop the odds from 2 in 11 to 2 in 12, yeah, I'm not putting the CASE in.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 13:29 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I like a long range and a short range in the arms and the same in the Torso's. Just in case...
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 13:31 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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On 2003-12-29 12:50, Rarich wrote:
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It's why unlike most people I fire slug from the LBX FIRST, saving the cluster rounds for once I have an armor breach on my opponant.
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Wow, I find myself agreeing with a Snake! Thats the way I typically think of fighting most of my mechs. Have big guns to blow off chunks or, better, kill the enemy at range. While having Lots of smaller stuff to exploit damage/ breaches at closer ranges.
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Well you agree with another one also. That is Why I think the PPC/SRM combo is one of the best mixes of weaponry. Punch holes and then fill them in. That is the beauty of LBX guns, they can do both, and with low heat and decent range they are a full range and various mission capable weapon. Always slug first, then cluster.
AWAD- T bolt is a great example of this long range punch then short range slap
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 16:02 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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| I remember awhile back somebody posted an XL'd hundred tonner mounting nothing but SRM-6s in the weapons department. It was kind of funny looking, but it could have put a severe hurting on somebody at close range....how many chances for a floating critical does that add up to?
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 17:08 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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All I know is when I first started playing I created the stupid design that had something like 9 or 10 SRM-4 Streaks on it. I was playing with a friend and we didn't tell what the other had for weapons. I closed in quickly and he ran behind a level 1 hill for partial cover. I only needed like an 8 and hit with more than half the weapons. You tell me what you think happened with 24 2-point groups coming in on the punch location. Quickest game I ever played that didn't involve a big gun taking out a head.
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1325
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 17:21 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I like to have my arms free to punch so I am always in a quandry about putting short range weapons in the arms. To punch or to have 360 coverage?
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8072
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 17:27 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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I very seldom punch...kicks are much more effective and are 1 easier to hit.
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 20:56 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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Which is why I always laugh at the people that underestimate the Commando or Javelin. People run in fear from an LB-20X, but ignore designs that can deal double the damage to the same number of hit locations?
SRM's are one of the cooler weapons in the game, and VERY underused.
I'd stack an equal weight in SRM's up against the MRM system any day.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 30-Dec-2003 22:08 Post subject: RE: How much heat? |
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The +1 to hit for MRMs kills that weapon for me. Anything short of an MRM40 is totally useless...making the MRM40 next to useless.
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