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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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 Posted: 26-Jan-2004 19:36 Post subject: Mech speed and agility. |
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Been gone for a while, but, I figured that I could just bounce this one around, see what all the new kids think.
There's been talk in the past about what a mech 'feels' like to pilot. How fast and nimble they are, for example. Do mechs in melee just sorta stand in front of each other like slow-motion rock'em sock'em robots, clanking at one another's chest with punches about as fast as a tank's turret turns, or do they mix it up like a Jackie Chan flick, with blocks, parries, the occasional legsweep, and so on?
Does, say, a Shadowhawk bolt across the open ground, baseball slide behind some rubble, back against the protection, then dip his head up for a look, back down, then springs up, firing on teh run as he moves to a better position? Or does it sort of clunk out legs step-rolling like a toy robot as it blasts away with gunpower, before gradually rolling behind a building for proetection?
Just how anthromorphic *are* these things?
For me, I'm going with teh following:
A mech that goes 5/8 moves as well as a human soldier in normal combat gear. IE, whatever a US soldier can do, a 5/8 mech can match.
A mech that goes 6/9 is akin to a soldier with a rifle, shirt, and pants. No extra gear, but can *really* move when he has to.
A mech that goes 4/6 is more like a riot officer than a soldier, with massive padding that makes his moves bloated and awkward. Really tough because they need to be, there are some basic bending things that they just can't do, leaving some maneuvering to be too awkward to manage. 4/6 mechs *hate* to drop their gun, because picking it up again is a royal pain.
A mech that goes 7/11 is akin to a human Gymnast or 100 yard dasher. These things are *fast* and bendy, and can do tricks that slower mechs just can't. These mechs can probably breakdance if they really wanted, jump pretty well even without jumpjets, and, in general, are just great atheletes.
A mech that goes 3/5 is just hating life. About as nimble as a cinematic knight in full plate (Slow, staggers, clumsy), they're there just to bring large guns, and lots of them, to the dance. Should another mech get inside their range, these poor guys are in trouble, as they're just too slow and clumsy to accomplish much other than get hit.
A mech that goes 8/12 turns fully Anime, with tricks like running headfirst into machinegun fire that's too slow to track it, then leaping into teh air, flipping over another mech's head, then cartwheeling a few more steps before popping up and shooting them flush in teh back. Mechs faster than this are just inhuman.
And woe to teh poor 2/3 mech. Little more than frozen pudding, these things can scarecly move at all, their weak lil' engines groaning as they force themselves to move, the entire mech whimpering in pain due to teh heavy, heavy weaponry it's forced to carry. About as agile as a sleepy giant tortise.
So, you know, that's just my *opinion*, and teh mental view I take when writing up mechs for Doggie World. Some are famous for their smooth operation (The Bushi, of House Kurita, for example, celebrated being picked up as a design by having a company's worth put on a dancing display for teh Coordinator) while others are more sluggish. In general, the more humanoid the design, the more maneuverable it is. The gyro to cyberhelmet interaction is key, of course.
-- Old Dog, will have to open some archives.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 19:53 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Whoa. This is something I had not thought about, and your mental pictures sound pretty good. Though I do think there is some wiggle room...for instance, I think the Panther is slightly more agile than most 4/6 machines. It just does not have open sprinting speed. But it can turn and duck and weave short bits just as well as a 5/8 I think. Anyway, this is good overall Old Dog. I'll have to look it over and make the adjustments to my mental pictures.
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 20:12 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Don't worry, nobody but me thinks of this stort of stuff.  I've got a cinimatic brain, so, I like to envision things all the time.
I like the idea of a couple lances of Shadowhawks, Griffons, and Wolverine's going down a trail, then someone picks up a signal from an Aerofighter. The lead man does a cutting signal with his hand, and all teh mechs scatter off the road and into cover, some rolling under trees or into a ditch, others squatting down behind rocks, and so on.
Weird, I know, but that's me.
-- Old Dog, whacky doggie
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 20:51 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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| I would think 'mech agility would have more to do with the specific architecture of the internal structure, and the configuration of actuators, than with ground speed. Take a Jenner and a Crusader, for example. The Jenner is a lot faster than the Crusader, but it could never dive with the agility of a human, as does not have any "arms" to break its fall. More likely than not, the Jenner would just slam into the closest object dense enough to stop it cockpit first.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 21:03 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Hey Old Dog I happen to be the resident Speed Phreak here I like to build light mechs with base moves like 9-14,10-15,and 12-18 then stuff MASC and/or super chargers in them as well I have one Famous(or infamous)design I call the Blizzard (I posted here a while back)that Has MASC and Supercharger that move at a 12-18(24-30) rate what would you have something like THAT do?
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Having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have-Rush Limbaugh www.rushlimbaugh.com
Force of nature
Still crazy after all these years
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 21:35 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Shake itself apart, most likely.
Mechs that fast tend to be fragile laserboats, able to do nothing but hunt for rear armor. Fine for single figts against level 2-3 players, but dead in the water on an actual battlefield, where multiple layers of mechs protect one another and infantry ambushes get free shots at your legs without taking motion into account.
As for how they'd operate? It'd be kinda like a jet fighter or high performance car ... they can do things that a human being just can't, leaving lots of wasted potential. They'd be *so* fast when you start running 20 or so, that the stress on the pilot and the mech itself would be too dangerous. One wrong step, and it's *over*.
-- Old Dog
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 21:39 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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On 2004-01-26 20:51, -Mud wrote:
I would think 'mech agility would have more to do with the specific architecture of the internal structure, and the configuration of actuators, than with ground speed. Take a Jenner and a Crusader, for example. The Jenner is a lot faster than the Crusader, but it could never dive with the agility of a human, as does not have any "arms" to break its fall. More likely than not, the Jenner would just slam into the closest object dense enough to stop it cockpit first.
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Oh, without a doubt the mech's shape is also a factor. Humanoid mechs, like the Stinger or Griffin, can do a whole lot more than, say, the Jenner. But speed's a great way to figure out how well it moves for teh shape. A locust nips about way faster than a Marauder, for example, despite the similar design. Similarly, a Battlemaster is far more clumsy than a Phoenix Hawk.
Teh more human mechs are *vastly* more maneuverable and capable of actions that the non-humanoid mechs can't even dream of, but the 'Chicken mechs' are more efficient weapon platforms. Tit for tat, I suppose.
-- Old Dog
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 23:34 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-01-26 21:35, Old Dog wrote:
Shake itself apart, most likely.
Mechs that fast tend to be fragile laserboats, able to do nothing but hunt for rear armor. Fine for single figts against level 2-3 players, but dead in the water on an actual battlefield, where multiple layers of mechs protect one another and infantry ambushes get free shots at your legs without taking motion into account.
As for how they\'d operate? It\'d be kinda like a jet fighter or high performance car ... they can do things that a human being just can\'t, leaving lots of wasted potential. They\'d be *so* fast when you start running 20 or so, that the stress on the pilot and the mech itself would be too dangerous. One wrong step, and it\'s *over*.
-- Old Dog
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O.K. this is the mech I was Refering to: http://www.mordel.net/barandgrill/viewtopic.php?topic=3011&forum=3&post=31525 It does use some level 3 tech notably the XXL engine It is the most radical of my designs but with MAX armour and 5 tons of pod space it is more than just a novelty.I also have a level 2 25 ton quad with a 10-15(20) move and I think 6 tons of pod space and Max armour.
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Having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have-Rush Limbaugh www.rushlimbaugh.com
Force of nature
Still crazy after all these years
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Steel-Scorpion
Steel Scorpion Mercs.
Mercenary General
Joined: 17-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 217
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 23:42 Post subject: Physiology: Human vs. Non-Human Shapes |
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Physiology plays a large part in how a Mech Moves. The Human body itself is very, very inherently unstable, requiring constand correction [our sence of ballence].
A Mech requires an artificial means to govern its posture during movement, unless is it standing still, thus the Need for a Gyroscope.
Also a reversed articulated leg design (Mad Cat like) makes for a good weapons platform, but it does not handle a wide variety of terrain well. It does its best in watery, swampy, and flat open land.
Standard articulated legs (Atlas, or Zeus like), provide inherently slower, but more versitile use.
EXAMPLE #1: Mad Cat (MC) is chasing a Pheonix Hawk (PH), the left lower leg actuator of the PH is damaged making it slow enough (looks like a human hobbling along) that the MC can keep up, the PH pilot decides to hobble down a steep incline, he can so efficiantly because the legs are shaped for it... the MC's legs aren't well suited for a steep incline, the MC pilot decides to try and go after the PH, the mech is not only ill-suited for the terrain, the pilot has to exert more effort to keep his Mech upright, but the incline is severe enough to make negotiating that grade imossable, the MC rolls ungracefully down the incline damaginf it severely. The PH pilot has an easier time to negotiate the incline because his Mech's design allows him to either "scoot" or "shimy" down the incline, thus his "Human" shape has enabled him to escape a more powerful mech, by use of the Mech's inherent flexability.
EXAMPLE #2: Scorpion vs. Shadow Hawk
Scorpion can negoiate hills, rubble, rough, water, and steep terrain better than the Bipedal Shadow Hawk. Because the Scorpion has to "crawl" around, it gives up the freedom to move like a BiPedal Unit. In exchange for its sacrafice, it gains the ability to move unlike a humanoid shape can, and is much more stable as a weapons platform. The Shadow Hawk has the Freedom to manipulate objects with hands, and to be able to use improvised weaponry. This makes the Mech Multi-Functional, the Scorpion is only designed for military aplications, or perhaps transportation duty. The versitile shape of the humanoid frame makes the Shadow Hawk more desirable than the Scorpion for Garrison, or multi-role units...
see my point...
I'll get more into the physics of leg design later.
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"A 'Mech as powerful as possible, as impenetrable as possible, and as ugly and foreboding as conceivable, so that fear itself will be our ally."Aleksandr Kerensky — On the Atlas
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 23:45 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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On 2004-01-26 23:34, Motown Scrapper wrote:O.K. this is the mech I was Refering to: http://www.mordel.net/barandgrill/viewtopic.php?topic=3011&forum=3&post=31525 It does use some level 3 tech notably the XXL engine It is the most radical of my designs but with MAX armour and 5 tons of pod space it is more than just a novelty.I also have a level 2 25 ton quad with a 10-15(20) move and I think 6 tons of pod space and Max armour.
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Yeah, that's a whole world I don't touch. XXL engines? Superchargers on *Clan* Mechs? Bah. Bah bah bah. That one mech would cost about, what? 22 Million? How effective is it when teh terrain forces a 4-1 MP conversion, such as good jungle terrain? Or in slippery terrain where it can pilot itself down to teh ground? How does it rate against, say, a similarly price inner sphere *company* of mechs? Is it economicly viable?
Now, if you just want *speed*, I still have the Vampire floating around here somewhere. 36 MP jumping at 0 heat, with ECM jamming and laser-reflective armor (To keep pulse damage down) means that pulse lasers hit for half damage on an 11 or so, while no other weapon can even *try* to hit. If you want munchy, I got munchy.
I just vastly prefer 'real' mechs.
-- Old Dog, more bark than bite
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2004 00:11 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Old Dog you mught get a kick out of my Ultra light designs,.I posted a whole lot of them here .They carry the Harley-Davison name plate there are 9 differant HD chassis one 20 ton and the rest 10 or 15 all use level 2 equipments all together there are around 60-70 variants I do mostly fast lights with level 2 dominant though I do use alot of level three I got a couple of ICE designs and some level 1 About a third of my stuff is posted here (I cut back on the posts over disagreements about format)I have averthing posted on HMP though finding them there can be a hassle because of the volume of posts there.You may want to use the search feature to find the Harleys (the threads were all done about the same time so they are grouped together meanwhile I will post up some of the other stuff and if a couple of the guys do not like the way I format my omnis well THHP!
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Having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have-Rush Limbaugh www.rushlimbaugh.com
Force of nature
Still crazy after all these years
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2004 06:46 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Mo, keep sticking that tongue out and it might get bitten off.... 
I always thought quad should be the more agile and responsive of mechs. Animals can do things that are humanly impossible and humans would have a tough time getting their brain around how to do it.
OD, you have a wordish type of brain...
Most English Majors do...
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2004 08:42 Post subject: RE: Mech speed and agility. |
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Always my main contribution, Henry, if memory serves. The Doggie Brain isn't aligned like the usual Battletech Brain. I don't look for the hyper-efficient TC-Clan Large Pulse machine. I look for stuff that has that nebuolous right 'Feel' as a mech.
I guess I'm more emotive than rational at the end of teh day. But at least we know why that is.
-- Old Dog, teriffic terrier
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2004 11:46 Post subject: RE: Physiology: Human vs. Non-Human Shapes |
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When I think of 'checken leg' mechs I think of pictures you see of people running through the pen trying to catch said chicken. Useless in rough terrain, but on open ground they are hard to corner. On a crowded battleground they will not be as useful, but when the mech count is low they can cause some serious headaches. Running this way and that fast enough that targetting computers have trouble keeping up and the human mind cannot predict.
Although I do have to say that I usually do not visualize the battle as much as you do Old Dog. I have never been into the roleplaying side of BT, so I look at just the numbers. Since I play several other wargames as well, it is easier for me just to convert the stats of each game in my head to fit my tactical style. My imagination usually only takes hold when I think about the game when not playing. (and yes, I have made a supper fast laser boat when bored)
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Festina Lente!
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jan-2004 15:15 Post subject: RE: Physiology: Human vs. Non-Human Shapes |
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I would agree that the speed would help govern how agile the mech is, but I would also want to see how "functional the armor protection is. There are some mechs out there that have armor that lloks like it is constantly getting in the way, and others that look very functional thru all the weight classes.
I do agree that Light mechs would be your wide recievers, capable of some interesting manuvers. The Mediums more like a running back or tight end, mobility without the wild speed and gymnastics. The line would be your heavies, some mobility, but more about standing and holding. The Center would be the assault, expected to be an immovable object that can take everything and dish it out just as hard.
Some of your analogies with armored troops work okay, but break down. I have watched a guy do a somersault in plate armor to grab a weapon on the run. I have seen others try similar things in chainmail, and fail rather miserably. It depends on the way the armor is put together.
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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