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bandit
Clan Nova Cat
Star Colonel
Joined: 21-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 482
Location: Italy
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 Posted: 06-Apr-2004 04:07 Post subject: recoil. |
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Last time I was in model store,and we was
talking about a vehicle (centauro)
developed and built in Italy.
Is wheeled and it got a big cannon in
turret(sorry but I'm so ignorant about
real war and concept,I don't remember
the exact caliber).
Anyway the point of discussion was that
this vehicle if shoot while turnig the
turret on it side risk to flip over for
recoil.
Comparing that with BT game I was thinking
if should be the same while using lasers.
I mean I try to shoot with a rifle during
my military duty,I remember the recoil
effect,what will happen with a
ipotetical laser?
One more thing:
The lvl 3 rule most often I used is sensors
option(visual,EM,thermo,seismic)1st cause
decrease the lenght time of playng.
I was wondreing if vehicle can use this
option.My intuition limit this fact at the
fusion powered only.
What your opinion about?
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 05:53 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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O.K. I hope I was able to understand your question correctly.You are concerned about the recoil effects of lasers,First lasers and PPC are weapons that soot beams of pure energy there is no mass hence no resistance and NO recoil only heat .Missile systems have mass but the force to move them comes from the combustion of a fuel to create force to move the missile if the launcher has a tube that is open at both ends then little or no force is applied to the launch vehicle so again no recoil.with a gun you have a sealed system and the combustion of the propellant causes force to be applied to both the projectile AND the launcher (The gun) causing recoil forces to be applied to the vehicle (or the person in the case of a rifle,pistol,or shotgun).I hope this explains what happens in a manner that crosses the language barrier.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 09:35 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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I would think that recoil for a mech should not be too much of a problem, the gyros should be able to counteract. When people fire rifles they are able to stay standing. The main problem would be wheeled or hover vehicles with a turret. When firing something the size of an AC20 the recoil would give a chance of tipping the vehicle over. Tracked vehicles usually have a lower center of gravity so the risk is lower. Recoil in the BT universe affects so few of the units that it would be up to the player to determine if it is worth the trouble. For the most part, the vehicles that pose the greatest risk of tipping have the least chance of being able to carry a cannon big enough to tip them.
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Kiris65
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 17-Dec-2003 00:00
Posts: 371
Location: Panama
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 10:51 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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If my physics is correct, you will get a recoil firing PPCs, as you are accelarating at extreme high speed plasma particles which do have mass as opposed to lasers which amplify light by radiation emission.
For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction, however the pilot will not feel a tremendous recoil firing PPCs (as you would firing an A/C20), but maybe a small tremour thanks to the dampening effects of the mech's gyros.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 11:30 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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First, is this the tank you were talking about?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/centauro.htm
If so, cool tank!
Now, to answer your question: I would say that recoil wouldn't really effect BattleMechs cause they use gyros and myomer muscle (much more powerful then our own muscle) to counteract the effects. Who knows the physics behind it, but that is how I believe it would work.
As to the tank, I did not read anything about recoil, but this is not Jane's, so I'll trust what you said about it. Still, it looks like an interesting tank. Have they fixed the recoil problem (maybe this tank is an upgrade?)
Raven!
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 11:52 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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They have fixed the recoil issue on this tank to a point. The French have used similar tanks (design -wise) for years. The are effective in most areas, but have reduced off-road capabilites as with all wheel armored vehicles. They are cheaper than a tracked tank, but carry less armor. Still, I have always liked wheel tanks.
Now, if you were talking about the Striker 8 which does not have a turret (as such), but a rotating gun mount, then you have a discussion on recoil. As it stands now, if the gun (105mm) is fired certain poistions, the recoil actually damages the tank. And Canada wants to replace its Leopards with this! 
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 13:03 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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Yeah, but thats Canadia, and when do they do much of anything that makese sense?
I would Immagine that the low center of gravity, coupled with a wide track or wheel base means that most vehicles dont have to worry too much about recoil, even from UAC 20s. Hover or VTOLs on the otherhand might get shoved around a bit, but just how much depends on the weight of the vehicle. I would assume that doctrine for UAC-equipped hovertanks would be to decouple the fans, ground the tank and blaze away. Then kick the fans back in and bug out. VTOLs Im not sure about.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 14:16 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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I can just imagine a hovertank with a RAC getting pushed back a hex by firing at full.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 14:21 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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They probably mount some sort of gyroscopic stabilizer in order to dissipate the force of the recoil. The force of the recoil is channeled into a gyroscope, which transforms the energy into centrifical force, thus dispersing it without hampering the control of the vehicle. Mind you, I'm no engineer...this is just a layman's theory.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 17:06 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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A gyro scope enables a vertical object to stay vertical. It is not designed to absorb something on the lines of the recoil of heavy autocannons. A gyro essentially gives the system it is attached to feedback as to the orientation of the object. A simple gyro is as simple as a spinning counter weight. That spinning weight will always stay either vertical of horizontal on its axis. So if that is always in one possition, then the rest of the machine around it can reference that and be able to stay balanced. The human body does this with fluid in the inner ear. When the fluid moves over certain sections it tells the mind that your body is tilting. Now that the science portion is over, the simple answer would be no, that would not work. In general a vehicle would not require a gyro because it is already stabalized by the tracks, tires or what ever to the ground. An advanced hovercraft with more than one lift fan would require one to keep level. Level does not mean that it cannot be pushed around by the recoil. For those other science geeks out there, did I miss anything?
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 19:51 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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What if they used a floating breech design? The breech would sit on a pair of rails that would allow the breech to recoil back away from the barrel after the shot was fired. Hook it up to a sieries of hydraulics, and the AC would fire, the breech would move backwards along the rails and thus soak up the recoil, while the loader drops another round into the breech. The breech cycles back forward and is ready to fire again. Lather, rinse, repeat.
It would also allow the high rates of fire kicked out by the UAC and RAC.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 20:11 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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Lasers shoot focused EM waves; there is very little mass associated with them. Surely not enough to make recoil a considerable force.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-04-06 20:12 ]
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 20:47 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-06 19:51, DarkAdder wrote:
What if they used a floating breech design? The breech would sit on a pair of rails that would allow the breech to recoil back away from the barrel after the shot was fired. Hook it up to a sieries of hydraulics, and the AC would fire, the breech would move backwards along the rails and thus soak up the recoil, while the loader drops another round into the breech. The breech cycles back forward and is ready to fire again. Lather, rinse, repeat.
It would also allow the high rates of fire kicked out by the UAC and RAC.
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To be effective the breech would have to be opened while the gases are still expanding such an action would incinerate everybody and everything inside the tank that is why it is not used. What you are talking about is essentialy the same principal as the recoilless rifle getting behind one of those when it is fired or firing one in a confined space is essentially a recipe for disaster.there is a device called a muzzle brake that fits on the muzzle of a gun that catches the gases coming out of the muzzle and using the force of those gases to pull against the recoil of the gun.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 20:59 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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You could vent the gasses out of the tank or even around the crew compartment. On some tanks it's been hinted at and on one said that there is automatic loading systems so there would be no need for crew to be near the breach end of the gun.
The sliding breach sounds like the old howitzer system.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 06-Apr-2004 21:53 Post subject: RE: recoil. |
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What about PPCs? The verdict with them seems split.
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