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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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 Posted: 09-Jul-2004 23:20 Post subject: Odd match-up. |
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Here's one that came to mind whilst flipping through TRO's.
The PPR-5S Salamander vs. the Kraken.
Inner sphere missle boat vs clan UAC/2 boat.
At 80 tons and mounting a trio of LRM-20's, the Salamander is on the light side of the assault class. Weighing in at 100 tons and carrying 10 UAC/2's the Kraken is at the opposite end of the spectrum. Both are long range support mechs with scant close in weapons. The Salamander mounts a pair of medium lasers while the Kraken carries a MG quad. The Salamander mounts 4.5 less tons of armor than the Kraken but moves faster. The Kraken can sustain double bursts for 9 runds and only carries a half ton for the MG's. The Salamander carries enough ammo for 18 rounds of firing and it's medium lasers require no ammo. The Kraken has no hands or lower arm actuators, while the Salamander has one battlefist while the other hand has been replaced.
All-in-all, I think it could be close. What do ya'll think?
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 09-Jul-2004 23:26 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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If the Kraken pilot knows what he is doing and keeps in rough terrain and doesn't waste his UAC 2 ammo, he'll win.
The salamander's best chance is to catch the Kraken out in the open and close to point blank quickly.
Course I'm not always right, and I"m assuming Veteran pilots.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 08:51 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-09 23:26, Blackhand wrote:
The salamander's best chance is to catch the Kraken out in the open and close to point blank quickly.
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So you're recommending the Inner Sphere LRM boat get to within point blank range? Why? So all his major weapons need +6 to hit? I think not. I'd try and stay at range 7 as that is short for you and medium for your opponent. If you can stick to that for the most part, I think you'll wear him down and come out on top. Of course, I good Kraken pilot will try to pin you in to get the Min mods on the LRMs. 4.5 tons less armor is quite a bit. I'm gonna have to give the nod to the Kraken, but only if the pilot isn't a dolt. 
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 11:57 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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Why is it every time I think I have a brilliant idea that nobody can beat, mordel comes along and spanks it?
He killed my Mad Dog with his Galahad in the most brutal loss I've ever had (I don't think I touched him before I died)
and now he has the affront to be RIGHT again and oh well:-P
Your right though mordel. The Kraken's got this one nailed.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 13:20 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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If you assume 4/5 pilots, and that neither person is terribely dumb, then I think the Salamander wins hands down. Just going by the numbers, the Kraken would have to have an accuracy of almost 70% over the ammunition life of its primary weapons to have its damage output match the armor of the Salamander. Unless these machines are at point blank, that's not going to happen. On the other hand, the Salamander only needs 50% accuracy to have its damage output match the armor of the Kraken (thats assuming an average of 12 missiles per successful volley). And when they are both out of ammunition, the Salamander has medium lasers to fall back on.
The Kraken does not have the damage capacity to take down the Salamander. Basically all the Salamander pilot would have to do is make sure the Kraken has a 7+ or greater to-hit for the majority of the game and then the statistics fall on the side of the Salamander.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-07-10 21:15 ]
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 22:50 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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Clan standard pilot. 3/4
IS standard pilot. 4/5
at least last I checked.
If I'm wrong please bash me in PM and just point out the true numbers here.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 22:54 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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From what I understand, the 3/4 is for trueborns who generally pilot omnis. Second string clan pilots are 4/5.
Even with a 3/4 the general strategy for the Salamander would be the same.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-07-10 22:55 ]
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 23:15 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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This would be a lot easier to guess on if you had the LRM Kraken instead.
The Salamander certainly has the advantage when it comes to weapon endurance. It's dangerous to take on the Kraken anyway. The PPR has an XL engine and carries nine tons of LRM ammo, after all. One floating critical blowing through the armor in the wrong place and it's all over.
The Kraken isn't likely to cause that golden critical before it's been dismantled, but that's all it can hope for.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 23:59 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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I dunno. If we assume average shots and most to-hit's at 7's, that means that the Kraken has an average damage potential of 5 AC's hitting, of which 2.5 will strike with both rounds. 7 - 8, so 14 - 16 damage per round.
The Salamander will hit with 1.5 of it's LRM racks, so do 12 - 24 damage per turn, so 18 average.
15 vs 18 isn't that much.
The Kraken has 304 armor, 152 internals , and only 5 ammo bins with a Clan XL.
The Salamander only has 247 armor, 122 internals and a whopping 9 ammo bins plus an XL.
304 armor / 18 damage = 16.98 = 17 turns to destroy all that.
247 armor / 15 damage = 16.47 = 17 turns to destroy all that.
However, the Salamander is much more fragile once it loses armor on a single location than the Kraken. So, if the Kraken pilot bides his time, and doesn't go Ultra the whole time, this could be a pretty close match. Not really a cakewalk eitherway.
The Salamander has the advantage that it's ammo will last, and that it has a small speed advantage, and it has to bank on that. But before that Kraken is out of ammo, the odds are significant that you loose armor off of either side torso or your LRM arm, and then the end might be very near.
Curiously, due to a minimum of only 2 hexes, the Kraken's best interests are served up close. If it can even get in range for kicks, it could be in pretty good shape. The speed advantage helps, but it's not quite enough to dominate and dictate range unless you get a streak of inits.
Ambiguous. I'm inclined to give a slight edge to the Kraken because of it's far greater survivability once it's armor is gone.
Paul
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Jul-2004 00:46 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-10 23:59, Paul wrote:
I dunno. If we assume average shots and most to-hit's at 7's, that means that the Kraken has an average damage potential of 5 AC's hitting, of which 2.5 will strike with both rounds. 7 - 8, so 14 - 16 damage per round.
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My argument was based on the life of the ammunition, not on a per-turn basis. The weapons have a finite lifespan based on the supply of ammunition which must be considered.
Also, the odds of hitting with the second shot in a UAC double burst is 42%, not 50%. So your approximation of 2.5 with both rounds would be better modeled as 2.
My previous argument for the Kraken used a liberal estimate in which the Kraken did not do double bursts, which gives it better odds. Using double shots lowers the Kraken's performance. If applied evenly to the entire load of ammunition this yields a hit rate of only 47.5%. Thus less than half of the Krakens available ammunition would hit. That's only 170 to 172 points of damage. Given that AC2's are not punch weapons and have a very large sample size, one could expect high dispersion over the target. I don't think the Kraken would break through and counting on luck shots to win is risky.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
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| Posted: 11-Jul-2004 00:55 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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But what you're not accounting for are the 2 medium lasers and the fact that anyone that knows what they're doing would close to within 6 and closer if at all possible (and based on the speed here, it's very easy to do). So, the LRMs wouldn't hit as nicely as you would think and you'd get more damage from the MLASs. Once again, advantage Kraken.
Until you're toe to toe, initiative doesn't mean squat as my main goal is to run at you knowing the best you can do is peddle backward.
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 11-Jul-2004 01:11 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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Just for the record, I'm going to agree with Mordel.
After playing a bunch of campaigns my favourite weapon is an AC-2. It doesn't get enough respect and you pile up the crits faster than most would expect.
With clan XL rather than XL IS to worry about I'd say that both mechs survive the ranged duel and that the Kracken wins the slugging match in close.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Jul-2004 01:32 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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No way. I don't think a 3/5 mech is going to close so nicely with a 4/6. It can do more than peddle backwards. Even if the game turns into a hit and run contest, the Salamander can keep the distance and the to-hit up.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 11-Jul-2004 09:29 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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3/5 WILL close on a 4/6 mech. There's nothing a 4/6 mech can do except turn it's back and run to get out of the way. You walk 4, I run 5. Terrain isn't always flat, making it harder for you to maneuver out of the way. A 4/6 'mech is not mobile enough, I gaurantee it. Especially since we're dealing with 1 map sheet here. That complicates things for you here.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 11-Jul-2004 10:06 Post subject: RE: Odd match-up. |
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Well, you are surely right in saying the Kraken should try to close in. I just tested MegaMek, with a 'bot as the Kraken, both pilots 4G/5P. The 'bot went for partial cover and peppered me with single shots, while I constantly missed my LRM volleys. After expending 6 tons of ammo I had a grand total of four hits on the Kraken! 
On the other hand, the last salvo went internal on his head and ripped it off. 
Tried it again with the 'bot as the Salamander. I just went closer with the Kraken and shredded him a bit, but I didn't manage to kill him. A lucky through-armor Gyro critical did him in, or rather his insistence on running with a damaged Gyro. After a few falls his LT took internal damage and the LRM ammo detonated.
One can certainly win with both mechs.
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