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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 01-Aug-2004 09:59 Post subject: Defining Mech types... |
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Okay in an ongoing discussion (hey we need something to keep us awake on the convoys besides the folks shooting at us) we have been trying to define mech roles.
Like certain mechs are really only useful in ceratian roles, like the Cataplut or the Stalker. While others can cross over and do more then one role, like the Mad Cat.
Now we have come up with the following roles and I would like to see how you folks place most of the mechs in these roles.
Fire Support (Indirect and Artillery)
Recon
Line
Raider
Multi-role
Command/Control
Feel free to add to the list it should give us some more to disucss...
Looking forwad to the input.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 01-Aug-2004 11:36 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Quote:
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On 2004-08-01 09:59, Karagin wrote:
Fire Support (Indirect and Artillery)
Recon
Line
Raider
Multi-role
Command/Control
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I really can't divide all mechs in certain roles just like that. Too much depends on what I've got to work with. Let's take a look at the Catapult, for example. Fire support, right? But I could also have the CO piloting it, staying on the fringes of the battle instead of messing it up in close combat.
A Marauder can be a Line mech, Fire Support or a Command machine. A Thunderbolt is pretty Multi-role, able to work as a Line mech or Fire Support.
My mechs will be filling different roles depending on the average weight class of the unit. The Wolverines would be on Recon in a unit of heavies, but in a medium unit they're Line mechs. I paired two WVRs with two Griffins and created a very nasty lance capable of slugging it out at all ranges.
I do label the lance after what I think it should be doing, though. Command, Battle (Line), Recon, Fast Attack (Raider) are the most common ones. Dedicated Fire Support lances are rare, as I think every lance should kill stuff anyway. Assault lances usually do exactly what my Battle lances do, only with a bit heavier mechs.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 01-Aug-2004 19:18 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Well, there's also city fighters. That seems to be a distinct niche...i.e. the Urbanmech or Wyvern design. Infantry support, but this is a bit rare, given you can do this just as well with a tank in most situations. And I'd also put in an assault role. This differs from line 'mechs in that an assault 'mech is designed to be the force that punches a hole in the enemy's line. A Hunchback is the perfect example...lots of heavy and assault 'mechs are perfect for this role too (obviously).
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 01-Aug-2004 20:43 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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I have Heavy strike units which consist of heavy mechs able to move at 5/8 (and hopefully jump). and still pack at significant punch on my lists.
Some mechs that come to mind are:
IS
Thanatos, Charger, Lao Hu
Clan
Timber Wolf, Summoner
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 02-Aug-2004 16:54 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Another rare niche role is the Sniper/Assasin, unlike fire support which fire upon targets of opportunity snipers and assasins go after a particular mech, some good examples would be
Grasshopper
Assasin (speaks for itself)
Hollander
Leprechaun (custom design based on this philosophy)
Exterminator
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Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 02-Aug-2004 23:19 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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I don't divide my mech units up quite the same way. My system is as follows:
Light Scout
Light Cavalry
Medium Garrison
Heavy Cavalry
Heavy Assault
Fire Support
Light Scout mechs are dedicated over to speed and sensors. Technically speaking, medium and heavy mechs could be in this category (I know people who use Mad Cats as scouts), but as a general rule, lights do most of the work. They are not normally employed in battles except in spotter or EW missions. A Locust or Wasp.
Light Cavalry is the fast "little war" unit. They are harassers, ambushers, flankers, skirmishers, and even sometimes scouts. They move quickly (which is their primary defense) and are well armed, though lightly armored. They strike quickly at weak points and then are gone before heavier enemies can be brought up. In a battle, they are the chasers and flankers, chasing down fleeing mechs that the heavier mechs can't catch, and even bringing down wounded heavies. It the opportunity presents itself, they will move around the sides to use their heavy weapons in flanking and rear fire. At the start of the battle, they will rush ahead to scout, fire a few shots from PPCs or autocannons to break up the formation, and then retreat before the heavy mechs are fully in position. A Jenner.
Medium Garrison mechs are the 40-60 ton mechs that are moderately fast, moderately well armed and armored. They serve as escorts, line mechs, weapons platforms, and as the name suggests, garrison. Their purpose is to be fast enough to defend moving or dispersed targets, well enough armed to drive off harassers, and well enough armored to hold off a determined attack long enough for support to arrive. During an assault, they will guard the flanks against light cavalry, protect the heavier mechs until they are in position, and in the event of a retreat, they will provide the rear guard. They are also the first line of assault in an urban fight. A hunchback or Griffin.
Heavy Cavalry is your run-of-the-mill big guns (think similar to the Abrams tank). They are not as fast as light cavalry, but fast enough to rush forward to plug a hole in a defensive line or to exploit the breaches in the offensive. These are well-rounded mechs, relatively fast, well armed and armored and able to operate for long periods of time without support or resupply. They are expensive, and though they are forward deployed, they are not on the front lines. They are held in reserve until they are needed, and then they can be concentrated where they are most effective. In battle, they will follow the Assault mechs in to exploit the breaches made in the enemy lines, charging at the last moment to break through and roll up the enemy. They also carry a mix of weapons to break the lines as they charge through. The Dragon or the Zeus.
Heavy Assault mechs are heavy on the armor and weapons at the expense of speed. They may have jump jets to assist in their duty. They are the front line of any assault on a stationary object as they are not fast enough to catch a moving one, and are too expensive to waste in ambushes. They carry devastating heavy weapons, like the Gause Rifle or the AC 20, or the ER PPC. They use hatchets, and may be equipped with jump jets or other specialized equipment for close combat. The plod toward a target, being as much psychological enemies as real ones (think the deathshead on the Atlas). They absorb damage without slowing, get close, and blow giant, gaping holes in the line for the second wave to exploit. Once they have made the hole, they stay in position to support, but their heat problems and the ammount of damage they have taken will prevent them from seriously partaking in the battle. After their assault, they must be pulled back for repair and refit before their next attack. An Atlas or a Highlander.
Fire Support is a mech of any weight that is equiped with particularly long ranged equipment to provide either direct or indirect fire on a battlefield that is not artillery or Aerospace. A catchall category. A Catapult.
I am a firm believer in combined arms theory, so I rarely ever send a "Heavy Assault" lance into battle unless it is supported by other lances. An ideal patrol would be 1 part Light Cavalry, 1 Part Light Scout, 2 Parts Medium Garrison or 2 Parts Heavy Cavalry. Of course, Aerospace support can mitigate the need for scouts and fire support mechs.
Infantry, Armor, VTOL, and Aircraft are not considered as their appearence on the battlefield in sporadic, and they are not normally a threat to a mech unless in large numbers or in a city.
Sorry for the length. Obviously I have thought too much about the topic over the years.
M"SD"H
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 03-Aug-2004 01:32 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Out of topic.
I take issue about armour aand infantry appearance being sporadic.
The inner sphere is chockful of conventional vehicles and infantry regiments. You could easily be looking at 5 or 6 to 1 odds where vehicles to mechs are concerned (maybe more) and above 10 to 1 odds for infantry regiments.
The reason why you don't see much of them in the novels? They ain't cool.
I use vehicles a lot. I won't say they are superior to mechs, but they have a role to play. A hovercraft scout platoon can cover a lot of ground while the siege tanks (90-100 tons) are monsters even mechs have to be wary about.
Funny.. isn't the federated suns one of the biggest users of combined arms tactics?
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 03-Aug-2004 01:44 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Saladins, Saracens, Pegasus, and Scimitar.
That lance of scout tanks causes one of my frequent opponents to break out in a cold sweat. He once lost a medium mech lance in exchange for the pegasus.
I find a reason to field about a lance of each of those 4 tanks. Just to keep opponents honest.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 04-Aug-2004 00:28 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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I will restate in the following way...
In the board game and RPG, vehicles and infantry are sporadic. All involved would rather blow up mechs than cannon fodder.
As for Davion's use of combined arms, yes, tanks and infantry would appear and would have their own classifications, but the heaviest tanks and infantry (excluding battle armor) would be mowed over by a single lance of Heavy Cavalry.
And finally, we are trying to classify mechs here, and the inclusion of vehicles, which are not near as effective as mechs, would simply confuse the issue.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 04-Aug-2004 02:11 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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That's one of the best breakdowns of the subject I've ever read here. There's a lot of overlap out of the medium category in particular though. I put Hunchbacks into the Heavy Assault category, for instance, and Griffins and Shadow Hawks are primarily fire support in my view.
You might want to replace with medium "garrison" with 'mech of the line. That covers designs like the Enforcer, Centurion, Shadow Hawk, Whitworth, etc. etc.
Another catchall category would include city-fighting designs; a siege train, essentially. Vulcans, Urbanmechs, and Firestarters fit into this category.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 04-Aug-2004 02:14 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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That works on open terrain. In rough terrain hovercraft are useless.
Properly deployed, infantry can really make a lance of 'mechs pay for advancing over a piece of ground...especially if the infantry can take cover in some solid buildings.
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 04-Aug-2004 08:37 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Mud's right, many mechs straddle various roles, the Stalker for example is at home punding enemy formations to scrap and in asiege situations.. err.. pounding enemy buildings/defenses into scrap...
As for vehicles, a mixed lance of schrek PPC carriers and Demolishers can stop even an assault lance in a hurry. But the same assault lance would be able to go around them.
Vehicles really need the right terrain to be effective, but when this is true, they can be very deadly to mechs. Woe betides the poor sod who runs intoa star of Mars Assault Vehicles.. ahem..
[ This Message was edited by: Erenon on 2004-08-04 08:40 ]
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 04-Aug-2004 23:56 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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I don't like to use "city fighter" as a designation because it tends to give people tunnel vission. Even though the Hunchback is a very effective city fighter, a good general will try very hard not to attack a city. Therefore, most city-fighter mechs would spend their days on the sidelines.
However, the Hunchback, and the Hatchetman, and many other mechs are equally effective escort, garrison, or "filler" types. I think I like the term "line mech."
As for Medium, when I wrote the list up, I was trying to keep at least partially in sinc with the game divisions of light, medium, heavy. I have never really been able to decide where medium started and ended, but anything that is clearly not Cavalry, Assault, Support, or Recon would be classified "Medium Garrison," or "Medium Line Mech."
I definately like that "line" designation.
The only reason I don't consider a hunchback an assault mech is because of its relatively piddling weapons load. In trying to break a line, the one autocannon will not do as much as the three PPCs on an Awesome. The Hunchback could help, but the Awesom would be the lead assaulter, thus putting the hunchback in the position of filler mech, or now line.
Granted, Line mech is probably a pretty amorphous category.
M"SD"H
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 05-Aug-2004 02:00 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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Regarding the Hunchback.
Think about the composition of your average line. It's medium and heavy 'mechs. I always put the Hunchback wherever I want to take the offensive. Even against heavy 'mechs the AC/20 gives the Hunchback a fighting chance. I've downed T-bolts, Warhammers, Crusaders, etc. etc. with a Hunchback. The range is generally too short to use it as a 'mech of the line, except in a few situations, such as ambush.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 05-Aug-2004 12:10 Post subject: RE: Defining Mech types... |
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I've downed an Awesome with one, by running towards it and gunning it. Knocking the mech over then finishing it off with a shot to the head on the floor.
Hunchback is the best assault supporter, despite its lack of numerous weapons its AC20 should not be underestimated, any mechs armour can be breached with three shots, most with two or one.
_________________
Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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