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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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 Posted: 08-Mar-2005 03:25 Post subject: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Opinions?
Is General Aleksandr Kerenesky a role model for proper role-playing CBT players?
After all, he piloted a humble (relatively) Orion ON1-K while his number two strode around in a honking big Atlas (Makes sense if you think about it...).
I mean, the man was the head of the SLDF with all its shiny toys!
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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bladewind
Free Rasalhague Republic
Major General
Joined: 02-Oct-2004 00:00
Posts: 1054
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 03:36 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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that was a pretty intelligent move ! Everyone shoots the biggest thing on the field first.
A Light would have being seen as an easy kill because its vulnerable.
A medium is still quite vulnerable plus their firepower is often annoying enough to warrant a quick death.
An Assault is a bullet magnet that can bearly move.
So a heavy is a nice blend of stature, firepower and protection.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 06:06 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Honestly, I don't care WHAT Aleksandr Kerensky drove.
To me he is always the leader who, when in a tight spot, turned tail and abandoned everyone in their greatest time of need (which he had kinda caused).
There's a thought - would the citizens of the combined IS not been better off if Kerensky had just made his peace with Amaris (notwithstanding the crime against the Cameron Family)?
Then, after he's disappeared, he turns his followers, until that time still naive idealists, into the greatest Fascist system to have ever existed. Way to go!
Mind you, the Clans are fascinating, they also embody ideals like truth and purity of the warrior, great to RPG with them. But look at them: when applied to all of society, it becomes a fascist state of affairs.
Recently, there was an Article (re-) published in the MFGermany magazine, called "Space-Nazis". It is basically the report of a FanPro-Official telling why FanPro, while translating all things BT and even comissioning one or two German products, NEVER translated anything Clan, apart from the TROs!!
So yeah, I'm not Kerensky's biggest fan.....
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 09:12 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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I will have to say no. Mainly because Kerensky is a part of the universe of the game, by this I mean he, like a lot of the other main line characters are driving the events forward.
For example, if you are RPGing and you do something that get's Hero 1 killed, but yet he or she is still alive as far as canon material goes it really defeats the whole point of having tried to role play him. The heros are the NPCs of the story. The readers are there in the sense that they are filling in away that allows us to see everything and get our hopes up that whatever is going to happen either does or does not.
I try to stay away from RPG the heros of any game, since they are normally special characters with more luck and one major thing going for them, the writer or writers are on their side 100%.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 10:44 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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The clan eugenics system is...disturbing...to say the least.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 11:18 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Begs the Lenin questions,
What is the IS's greatest tragedy? Kerensky winning (subjugating the Periphery and slapping around the Usurper while not handling the Great Housing) or Leaving (as above but not cleaning up).
I think the first, he was a mindless robot that acted on emotion and forgot the politics. Then he sees the mess he made, OK Stephan helped a lot, and split. Even if he did not leave, the mess would have been impossible to contain. Ignoring the houses and going scorched earth guns blazing glory did nothing but cause problems. He had no recontruction or control plan.
AWAD- Lenin Question and proverb in Russia, What was the greater tragedy to Russia, Lenin’s birth or his death?
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 15:00 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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I say yes in the very narrow sense that he demonstrated all of the greatest characteristics of a mechwarrior and a mechcommander.
My reading of the history is that he was screwed by the successor states. After winning their tacit consent to let him remove the usurper and liberate earth, they then turned on him and each other. After all, they made him protector and then complained that he, well, protected.
He is, however, a perfect example of why the modern military should be governed by the civil state.
Side note: I GMed a Star Wars RPG where the players participated in the first battle of Mon Calamari. They were involved in a raid on the orbital platforms during the battle to prevent the shipyards from being destroyed by fleeing Imperials.
Half way through the battle, dreadnaughts from Correllian sympathizers, led by Garm bel-Iblis, arrive. (Yes, I wrote my own version of the battle.) Afterwards, the players wanted to get both bel-Iblis and Ackbar on their ship. "It's called Script-Immunity Armor!"
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 16:41 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-08 09:12, Karagin wrote:
I will have to say no. Mainly because Kerensky is a part of the universe of the game, by this I mean he, like a lot of the other main line characters are driving the events forward.
For example, if you are RPGing and you do something that get's Hero 1 killed, but yet he or she is still alive as far as canon material goes it really defeats the whole point of having tried to role play him. The heros are the NPCs of the story. The readers are there in the sense that they are filling in away that allows us to see everything and get our hopes up that whatever is going to happen either does or does not.
I try to stay away from RPG the heros of any game, since they are normally special characters with more luck and one major thing going for them, the writer or writers are on their side 100%.
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I don't think he actually meant to RPG Kerensky himself, but to use Kerensky as a MODEL. Hence the title "Role Model". I would agree, hes a very good RM, all except his ditching the IS. Especially the 'mech choices, as pointed in the original post. Very intelligent and unassuming.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 17:04 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-08 03:25, Erenon wrote:
Opinions?
Is General Aleksandr Kerenesky a role model for proper role-playing CBT players?
After all, he piloted a humble (relatively) Orion ON1-K while his number two strode around in a honking big Atlas (Makes sense if you think about it...).
I mean, the man was the head of the SLDF with all its shiny toys!
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How do you mean?
Do you mean to the players, in the way he didn't pilot a Daishi? Or to the characters, in the way he abandoned his responsibilities?
If the former, then yes. I like that Kerensky didn't pilot the heaviest 'Mech he could find. Among other things, I think it's a sign of confidence in one's own piloting skills for a leader to run a heavy 'Mech, as opposed to the heaviest thing he can find. I liked that Archer Christifori ran a Penetrator. Of course, I'm moving more towards characters than players here. But this is also true of players, as it keeps them from being munchy.
If the latter, then mostly no. Kerensky supposedly saw the Exodus as a part of his duty, in that any other course of action would totally destroy the Inner Sphere and the last legacies of the Star League. I see the Exodus as fleeing from his responsibilities to protect the Inner Sphere and its people. I compare it to Victor joining ComStar; avoiding the problem, as if that will do anything but make it worse.
_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 17:17 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Perhaps, instead of running, he could have tried to re-establish the old Terran Hegemony? Pulling the entire military might of the SLDF into such a confined space would not only render the area nigh-unassailable, but would likely have spared much of the rest of the Inner Sphere, as the house lords would not have been able to swell their armies by hiring what remained of the SLDF.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 18:13 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Wasn't an option. Kerensky was the Protector. He couldn't attack his own government.
No, I think he did the best thing available to him. When it became clear that the successor lords were going to cannibalize the SLDF to have their little war, he removed the military from the equation. As a soldier he couldn't attack earth or any of the successor lords, and he couldn't let them use his army like that. So he left.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 18:24 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-08 17:04, StarRaven wrote:
How do you mean?
If the former, then yes. I like that Kerensky didn't pilot the heaviest 'Mech he could find. Among other things, I think it's a sign of confidence in one's own piloting skills for a leader to run a heavy 'Mech, as opposed to the heaviest thing he can find. I liked that Archer Christifori ran a Penetrator. Of course, I'm moving more towards characters than players here. But this is also true of players, as it keeps them from being munchy.
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I wasn't very clear.. my bad..
but i meant from this view point. Politically, he made the wrong move as far as i'm concerned.
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 21:23 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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OKay, there is quite a bit of misconceptions about Kerenski. Has anyone here actually read some of the books about him?
jymset-Here's a thought, compare Amaris to Hitler and ask again your question. Would Europe have been better off if the Allies had just made peace with him and be done with it?
AWAD- Mindlessss robots don't act on emotions. Ignoring the houses? Do you realize just who was behind all the warfare in that era? The House Lords.
saberDance- Kerenski is an example of a military controlled by civil leaders.
general peeps- Kerenski was a soldier, first and foremost. He was no politician he made no claims to be such. He dispised politicians. He also had the opportunity to take the Star League yet declined. He also was ofered the position of control unitl another leader could be groomed for it, again he declined. He removed the largest, most deadliest weapon in the Inner Sphere at that time, his army. He knew what was coming, he tried to stop it. He was sent home with his discharge papers. He was replaced by a man who would go to war for the House Lords. The House Lords also tried to brbeak this huge army up to bolster their own forcecs. War was inevitable. Kerenski saw this as did his army. He was tired of war. Bone tired. He's been at constant war(war dictated by the civil leaders mind you) for a long time. First the wars to subjigate the Periphery Sates, then the Amaris War, and finally the war of words with the greedy arse House Lords and their lackies. No, I think he had to go. And I applaud his decision. 
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 21:45 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-08 21:23, Seraph wrote:
OKay, there is quite a bit of misconceptions about Kerenski. Has anyone here actually read some of the books about him?
AWAD- Mindlessss robots don't act on emotions. Ignoring the houses? Do you realize just who was behind all the warfare in that era? The House Lords.
. First the wars to subjigate the Periphery Sates, then the Amaris War, and finally the war of words with the greedy arse House Lords and their lackies. No, I think he had to go. And I applaud his decision.
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Yep, and that was the reason he is not a role model. I know who is behind this, I know who my enemies are, but bugger off I am out of here. There is no repeat NO honor in that. It was the best decision, BS, that was a cop out.
Not saying he would have made the situation better, heck might have really screwed it up worse. But his balls shriveled up, brain went into melancholy, and heart turned cold, yes cold, because he no longer cared about the people that helped put that stars on his shoulders. Gents if the US just up and pulled out of IRAQ today, it would be the equivalent of a Kerensky, quitting. Screw all the other stuff, it is about quitting.
And as for this BS that he drove and Orion, probably what was handed down to him, so he kept that ride. Remember that an Orion was a big and bad ass Mech of 3025, not a jalopy.
And one more reason he is not a role model, did not half his followers fall into chaos and civil war? Yep, I think we have his problem, a commander and not a leader. Think on that one.
AWAD- geesh, I am getting worked up like Karagin and Ruger
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 08-Mar-2005 22:41 Post subject: RE: General Kerensky Role Model? |
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I think it was more 'lesser of two evils' for Kerensky, AWAD.
Option one. You stay in the IS and KNOW that your troops will be used to brutalize and butcher the very people the SLDF was charged with protecting.
Option Two. You leave the IS, knowing that your troops will not be used to inflict even more devastation.
That may not be much solace, knowing that because you left, there will be one less smoking crater instead of a city, but in warfare, you take what you can get.
I also dont belive that the House Lords would have been receptive to re-forming the Star League. When someone is bound and de-damn-termined to DO something (war, hurting someone, hurting themselves, what have you) there really isnt much you can do to stop them. The power of Stupid People in large groups, and all.
As for reforming the Hegemony. Dumb Idea in the worst sort. ComStar records prove that both House Marik and House Davion were planning on capturing Terra at some point in the Succession wars, for no other reason than its where the human race got its start. With that mindset, how long do you think that the Hegemony...the forerunner to the vaunted Star League...would last? How many waves of attackers would you have to deal with assaulting you from all sides? What would be left of the planet, to say nothing of the civilian population, when everyone runs out of troops, or interest in ONE planet, let alone the planets in the Hegemony? Just so some cretinous yahoo of a House lord could say 'hey, I just captured the Hegemony worlds, aint I a stud?' To which every other Lord says "no" and attacks anyway.....
Bottom line is Kerensky did what he THOUGHT was for the best. Right or wrong, well, it seemed like a good idea at the time. And I belive that the IDEA was correct.
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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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