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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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 Posted: 05-Nov-2005 09:14 Post subject: Heavy Match-up. |
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Okay here's something not seen in a while.
Who would win in a head-to-head battle? CRD-3R Crusader versus CPLT-A1 Catapult.
Both are 65 tons, both mount long and short range weapons packages. One is more mobile while the other mounts more close in weapons.
I know my pick, what's yours and why?
I'm thinking a 2x2 mapsheet layout. Mostly open with a couple low hills and some light woods here and there.
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 09:33 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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The A1 has precisely ZERO short-range weapons. Twin LRM-15s, 12 tons of armor, 4/6/4 movement, and 15 Heat Sinks (which is quite wierd, because it can only generate 14 points of heat).
The C1, however, has quad Medium Lasers.
Between the CRD-3R and CPLT-A1, It's the 3R hands-down.
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Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 09:34 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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CRD-3R Crusader is going to win. First it has more short range weapons then the Catapult and it also has hands, which means it can get physical with the Cat and thus has another damage level to use.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 12:02 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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I'd be willing to say Catapult, assuming that both mechs enter at opposite ends of the map (if they start two hexes away from each other, the Crusader will just toast it). A smart Catapult pilot will do his best (including using his JJ's to stay at long range, or keep terrain blocks between them. It may come down to the Crusader running out of long-range ammo. Near a hill or forest, those JJ's will make closing the gap frustrating for the Crusader. By the time the Catapult is forced into physical combat (it can't punch, but it can always kick, charge, and DFA) it should be out of ammo (no explosions or heat worries). and both mechs should be close to death anyway. The Crusader pilot will still have ammo, and will still need to watch his heat even with the LRMs gone.
A lucky (or late game) crit to a torso is a disaster for a Crusader. It can't handle any extra heat, and it's sitting on top of LRM ammo (on the sides) and SRM and MG ammo (in the CT!). The Catapult at least has its JJ's to pad out the side torsos, and can handle the extra heat from an engine hit.
I think no matter who wins, it would be close. Each pilot would be one major mistake away from defeat the whole match.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8072
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 12:17 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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On 2005-11-05 12:02, Knightrunner wrote:
I'd be willing to say Catapult, assuming that both mechs enter at opposite ends of the map (if they start two hexes away from each other, the Crusader will just toast it). A smart Catapult pilot will do his best (including using his JJ's to stay at long range, or keep terrain blocks between them. It may come down to the Crusader running out of long-range ammo. Near a hill or forest, those JJ's will make closing the gap frustrating for the Crusader. By the time the Catapult is forced into physical combat (it can't punch, but it can always kick, charge, and DFA) it should be out of ammo (no explosions or heat worries). and both mechs should be close to death anyway. The Crusader pilot will still have ammo, and will still need to watch his heat even with the LRMs gone.
A lucky (or late game) crit to a torso is a disaster for a Crusader. It can't handle any extra heat, and it's sitting on top of LRM ammo (on the sides) and SRM and MG ammo (in the CT!). The Catapult at least has its JJ's to pad out the side torsos, and can handle the extra heat from an engine hit.
I think no matter who wins, it would be close. Each pilot would be one major mistake away from defeat the whole match.
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The Catapult doesn't have anything more than luck on its side...to follow your tactics:
4 gunner
+4 long range
+3 jump
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11 to-hit, and you haven't figured terrain or defender move mod.
Fighting at medium range won't work well for the Catapult either as the Crusader has the same main weapon.
And fighting at short range is a guaranteed loser for the Catapult.
The Crusader wins this battle easily 19 out of 20 times.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 16:34 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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I'd go for the Crusader, but i can see where Knightrunner is coming from with the Catapault, but its still a real long shot.
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McBride
Draconis Combine
Shujin
Joined: 06-Nov-2004 00:00
Posts: 101
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 20:42 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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I had to go with the crusader, mainly due to the lack of close in weapons on the Catapult, but also because the catapult will have a hard time hitting the crusader to start with.
The only big thing running against the crusader, other than bad ammo placement, is heat. It is forced to use some form of heat-conserving firing pattern while the Catapult can alpha every turn, even while jumping.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 05-Nov-2005 22:22 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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I posted this version of the Catapult just to see who was paying attention. 
It is feesable for the Catapult to pull out a victory but it would be a pyrric one at best. I figure the Crusader would win most often in this matchup.
Couple points to consider: Ammo quantity and placement in the Crusader plus it's relatively thin armor.
Lack of back-up weapons on this Catapult would relegate it to support duties in any unit. But no such luck here. Carrying double the ammo reserves for it's LRM's, it must try to keep the Crusader's pilot at a distance. Here's the trick. Try to stay near your minimum. The Crusader would be hard pressed to get a hit off with it's short range weapons at a distance of 6-9 hexes. Which is short to medium range for the LRM's. Both mechs need to keep in motion. The Catapult to keep the distance at it's optimum and the Crusader to keep within the minimum range of the LRM's. It, as usual, comes down to initiative and lucky dice rolls.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 06-Nov-2005 07:06 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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I voted for Catapult, even if just to add another vote for it. Under normal conditions the Crusader is clear favorite in this match, but if the terrain is right, Catapult may stay out of reach and benefit from Crusader's small LRM ammo bin. Using Thunder rounds may make life harder for the Crusader too.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8072
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Nov-2005 07:24 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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On 2005-11-06 07:06, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
I voted for Catapult, even if just to add another vote for it. Under normal conditions the Crusader is clear favorite in this match, but if the terrain is right, Catapult may stay out of reach and benefit from Crusader's small LRM ammo bin. Using Thunder rounds may make life harder for the Crusader too.
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Not a chance.
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 06-Nov-2005 10:00 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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On 2005-11-06 07:24, chihawk wrote:
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On 2005-11-06 07:06, Sleeping Dragon wrote:
I voted for Catapult, even if just to add another vote for it. Under normal conditions the Crusader is clear favorite in this match, but if the terrain is right, Catapult may stay out of reach and benefit from Crusader's small LRM ammo bin. Using Thunder rounds may make life harder for the Crusader too.
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Not a chance.
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Succinct, but correct. 
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 06-Nov-2005 10:06 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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18 times out of 20 the Crusader will have to kill itself for the Cat to win. Overheat, overheat, overheat. Shutdown, ammo explosion.
There's always a chance for a floating critical, so in 2 out of 20 one of the mechs manages to set off an ammo explosion on the other.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Nov-2005 18:34 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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With the advantages of armor and LRM ammo, the Catapult could maybe win. But ammo, especially in 3025, is also a liability. While the Catapult is not helpless or hopeless, most of the time it will die. It simply doesn't have the firepower to win most of the time.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 06-Nov-2005 18:53 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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Past 7 hexes the mechs are pretty well matched, but the Catapult does have the heat and ammunition advantage. On a 2x2 battlefield, it should be able to backwalk (using JJ’s as necessary to bypass terrain- NOT every round) for 6 rounds before having to drive for cover. The Crusader needs to keep strict control over his heat- if he slows down, the Catapult will be back at 7-9 hexes again (long-range, in the good way, for the Catapult).
If the Crusader is being careful about heat, he needs to be within 4 hexes to beat the Catapult’s firepower (averaged over a couple of turns). It’s not easy to stay that close to a jump-capable mech.
With some helpful terrain and initiative rolls, the Catapult can escape a corner and start running back down the field- with it’s heavily armored back towards the Crusader (who should have few/no LRMs remaining). If the Crusader is facing the wrong direction and/or above 4 overheat, the Catapult will get a nice head start (preferably 7 hexes) that it won’t lose until it gets to the other side (barring leg criticals) firing LRMs behind it all the way. The Crusader would have little choice but to follow. The Catapult’s rear armor should stand up to a several rounds of fire, if it can get to at least 7 hexes.
With no punch-through weapons and plenty of armor the players will have little choice but to brutally wear each other down. The only other likely outcome is death by lucky critcal- and both mechs are susceptible to that. This will not be an easy battle, no matter who wins.
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Zippythewonderslug
Federated Suns
Private
Joined: 27-Aug-2005 00:00
Posts: 18
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Nov-2005 08:18 Post subject: RE: Heavy Match-up. |
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Quote:
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On 2005-11-05 09:14, Seraph wrote:
Okay here's something not seen in a while.
Who would win in a head-to-head battle? CRD-3R Crusader versus CPLT-A1 Catapult.
Both are 65 tons, both mount long and short range weapons packages. One is more mobile while the other mounts more close in weapons.
I know my pick, what's yours and why?
I'm thinking a 2x2 mapsheet layout. Mostly open with a couple low hills and some light woods here and there.
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I would have to say The cat mostly becouse I favor it over the cru do to my taste hehe
though stat wise they are fairly even all in all i think the cat has a bit more mobility and a better heat curve though. but it would come down to the pilots tactics in teh end since the mechs are pretty even.
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