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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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 Posted: 18-Aug-2006 17:28 Post subject: Man O'war v. Uller |
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After a discussion the other day, I tried to think of the largest Clan omni that a Man O'war Prime (or Gargoyle for purists) could reliably defeat. I decided that the Uller (Kit Fox) was about as big it could go, but can the MO'w really do it?
So, please assume 3/4 pilots and a 2 mapsheet battlefield (say rolling hills). Any level 2 legal tactics are allowed (including physical attacks). Cluster or solid shot for the LB 5-X's (or one of each for the MO'w) and standard SRM's.
So, what would happen?
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 18-Aug-2006 19:15 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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That just shows how sad the Man O' War really is.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2006 00:33 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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Quote:
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On 2006-08-18 17:28, Knightrunner wrote:
So, what would happen?
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Light vs Heavy? Sure, the Uller's got better long-range guns. It's still only a light mech and takes damage like one. And it's just one step faster than the Man-O-War. Two mapsheets is small enough that the Uller can be backed into a corner. Then it's game over, man.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 19-Aug-2006 03:53 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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The Gargoyle has almost three times the armour of the Kit Fox. And a much stronger internal structure.
Sure, it does 5 damage less at long ranges, but has much better firepower at short ranges.
This one is no contest.
PS - has anyone ever tried using the Gargoyle PRIME with the old Solaris duelling rules? I haven't. But it strikes me that using those rules this design would suddenly have an absolutely awesome jump in performance.
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The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Aug-2006 19:31 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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I could win with either, given the right circumstances. But, 9 times out of 10 the Man o' War would win.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 21-Aug-2006 10:24 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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The Gargoyle prime is simply too tough and fast to be beaten easily by the Kit Fox prime.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 21-Aug-2006 11:38 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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So I did this battle over the weekend (running the Uller). After I lost both arms, I retreated off the board. CT armor was breached, but no criticals other than the arms.
The Man O'war was in bad shape. RT was open, and had taken an engine hit. Every location (including the head) had lost armor. It was also almost out of ammo for the AC's (about half a ton remaining).
Standard AC ammo was key; the Uller's light armor just wasn't enough to stop multiple 5-point shots. SRM's weren't particularly useful (for either mech). The small lasers never hit once.
The match went well, so I'd have to say that other than lucky crits or a major mistake, this is probably what would happen most of the time. However, if the Man O'war had been carrying only cluster, the match might have gone quite differently. Maybe next weekend . . . 
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 22-Aug-2006 14:49 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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I'd think I would want four maps to really test this matchup. Can the Uller pick the Man O'War apart with the laser or not?
I always tend to feel that two map sheets are too small anyway. Maybe its just me, but I like being able to utilize speed and long range weapons for all they're worth.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 22-Aug-2006 16:54 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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The range brackets of the LB 5-X and the ER Large are almost identical, so there can't be any 'free' ranged shots. But . . ammo is a concern for the Man O' war.
Based on number of long-range hits (few), if it stayed at long range the Man O'war would have run out of ammo before bringing the Uller down or, if conserving ammo, fail to do any damage at all in the early rounds. Obviously he had to close, and did so as fast as possible.
If the mapsheets allowed long-range shots, but was difficult to cross (say, the MOw had to negotiate water) the Uller would have had more of an advantage, same as if the maps were easy to cross, but there was plenty of room to backwalk. As it was, the MOw could close relatively easily, and the best the Uller could do was stay out of good range brackets for the SRM's and ER Small.
So if the mapsheets were favorable the Uller could probably take the Man O'war most of the time. Using two sheets of rolling hills (what I think of as a 'default' battlefield), the advantage shifts back to the Man O'war.
I like huge battlefields, too. The battles are very different on 2 versus 4-8 map sheets. It's just hard to set up in most people's houses.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 23-Aug-2006 04:10 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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I think that unless the map is a flat plain where the Kit Fox can maneuver freely than the Gargoyle should be able to kill it.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 23-Aug-2006 12:08 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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| Yes. There are couple of mapsheets that might give the Uller a chance (scattered stands of forest, marshes, or lots of flat pavement), but all of them are flat or nearly so. Any terrain that slows the Uller down significantly or allows use of cover while advancing makes the Man O'war the likely winner.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 23-Aug-2006 12:29 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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What about a Fire Falcon...the one with paired ER Large Lasers and a Targeting computer? Only 25 tons, but moves 8/12. I'd rather take that against a Gargoyle than a Kit Fox myself...provided I had room to maneuver and a chance to get some long range shots.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 24-Aug-2006 00:13 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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Quote:
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On 2006-08-23 12:29, mud wrote:
What about a Fire Falcon...the one with paired ER Large Lasers and a Targeting computer? Only 25 tons, but moves 8/12. I'd rather take that against a Gargoyle than a Kit Fox myself...provided I had room to maneuver and a chance to get some long range shots.
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If you get to choose your Omni+config the Man-o-War should at least get to pick a better config for itself. The D, perhaps, with paired ER Large Lasers and a TC? 
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 24-Aug-2006 02:08 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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The point was to find the smallest thing able to engage Gargoyle prime with a good chance for winning the match. And I think that the mech we are looking for is the Koshi (Mist Lynx) C.
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 24-Aug-2006 09:06 Post subject: RE: Man O'war v. Uller |
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A Dasher D running and gunning for aimed shots to the CT rear should do the trick in that case.
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