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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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 Posted: 19-Sep-2006 12:18 Post subject: 3025 'mechs and their variants reviewed by categories |
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IMPORTANT NOTE - this main post only works in linking to the appropriate articles if you view the boards in threaded mode. In fact, it is also highly recommended that you use said modus for the whole organisation of this thread.
NEW CHANGES!
First of all, read this post if you're new to this thread. But to make things easy, here is a list of the criteria I am actually using for this thread (courtesy of CO_17thRecon). I originally only had the classes listed in the Marauder thread. Can anyone confirm the reappearance of these in the new boxed set?
Secondly, I will keep an up-to-date list of Mechs covered right here, meaning that there is actually some sort of grander concept involved in this thread.
MAD-3* Marauder - 19th September 06
ON-1* Orion - 23rd September 06
BLR-1* Battlemaster - 29th September 06
TBT-5* (& 7K) Trebuchet - 4th October 06
RFL-3* (&4D) Rifleman - 27th November 07
CGR-1* (& SB) Charger (Challenger) - 30th November 07
CTF-*X Cataphract - 1st September 08
WVR-6* Wolverine - 16th September 08
TDR-5* Thunderbolt - 20th September 08
Finally, I'm moving the to-do list to the top, so you can see where we're at all at one glance. Remember - I'm always taking requests. Next up:
Stalker
Vulcan
Vindicator
Centurion
Victor
Hunchback
And if any of you actually want to do one of these (remembering the criteria we're examining the designs with) - go for it! I'll integrate them in this header.
Original topic title: Discussion on variants of 3025 'mechs
With this topic I want to animate members to go back to the actual board game, to discuss actual designs and and to strengthen the role of 3025 (the only true era!).
Back before my hiatus, I'd already put up some polls on the popularity of 3025 designs when compared to their competitors of equal weight. So now I was thinking that a discussion on various base design in comparison to their own variants might be fun.
I hope that this finds some base resonance - if it does, I'd like to add various other 'mechs in short intervals to keep the thread alive!
This Message was edited by: jymset on 2006-10-04 06:57
Update, November 27th. Hi guys. I've been on these boards forever. I think this thread probably has the most merit out of all the ones I started. I'd like to get this one back up and running.
Today, I changed the titles on the 4 entries I did more than a year ago. This way there is at least a semblance of structure (now that threading has been implemented again). I also added another design. And I had to abbreviate the title (damn! There is a cap there!)
Looking at below, there were further designs which I originally promised to do. Thus, I will keep an up to date list attached to this post, with any requests, etc. Hopefully this will achieve a more dynamic feeling for this thread.
I promise here and now: as soon as TRO:3039 is released, I will do the Cataphract - which is one of my favourite 3025 mechs. Originally just a single model (1X), a slight modification was released in BP: 4th SW (2X) and recently in TRO:3050U (4X). We are now missing a 3X, which I guess we'll see in the upcoming TRO:3039! Hence, this one is now on the list, too! - I guess that was another promise I broke...
Update, September 1st. Nothing to add. I've now done the Cataphract, one of my personal favourites. No, the -3X never saw the light of day, but a post over at CBT reminded me that I would really love to see this thread grow. I won't add anything to this post other than increasing the above list, if I ever come round to it.
Are you still interested in the CBT universe of 3000-3040? Then join in! Or request a particular design!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
[Last edited by jymset on 24-Sep-2008 04:49; edited 14 times in total]
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2006 12:45 Post subject: MAD-3* Marauder [with list of classifications] |
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MAD-3* Marauder
It was when I was last thinking about this ultimate "poster" 'mech that the idea for this thread struck me. That is because the base chassis, the MAD-3R was not as feared as depicted in fluff. At the same time, the MAD-3D is loved by many - too many, IMO. I still love the original MAD-3R best, out of the 4 configurations that are canon. It has the best, most bad-ass feel of the lot. But can I back that up some more?
When I asked myself that question, I caught myself thinking of Nystul's categories in "First Strike" (which should still be elemental reading for any newbie). He talked of 7 categories of 'mechs:
Scouts
Strikers
Skirmishers
Brawlers
Missile Boats
Snipers
Juggernauts
Clearly, the Marauder only ever fulfills two of these roles: Brawler and Sniper. Let's look at the designs in that context:
MAD-3R - admittedly, out of the 4, this is the one least suited as a Brawler. In fact, its heat issues make it rather bad in running and/or close ranged battles. It is, however, IMO the best sniper of the lot. It is the only one that has a long range bracket (for 3025) on all 3 primary guns. It will be forced to bracket-fire, but can do so beautifully: once it finds a sniper nest, firing PPC-PPC-AC and then PPC-AC in the following turn will balance the heat perfectly, without ever putting any modifiers on to-hit nos. In fact, simply because it needs to be more careful about the heat than an Awesome (and because it is also generally seen as less dangerous), I'd consider the MAD-3R to be the single best SNIPER of all the 3025 stock designs!
MAD-3D - ah, now everyone loves this one. It is easy to see why: with 20 HS, it can now fire the two PPCs with impunity. There is also no nasty ammo to explode. Does this make the design more powerful? In many ways, definitely. It changes the dynamic of the design, leaning it more towards the Brawler category. However, there are some draw-backs which is why I prefer the base chassis - it is seen as much more of a threat, but still mounts the same armour (sufficient, but not really all you'd want on a 75-ton BRAWLER). It will also overheat even more than the base design when trying to fire all 3 primary weapons. Really, the MAD-3R is the better Sniper and there are quite a few Brawlers out there that are more intimidating. All in all, it is an obvious and powerful upgrade, but it doesn't really feel all that great to me, for above reasons.
I do like the fluff explanation for it: the designers wanted to get rid of the autocannon, whose joint was unreliable. I envisage a chin turret, just as the one found on the 3025 MAD-II....
MAD-3L - this variant, more of an improvised hodge-podge that is much-maligned in-universe, I actually like quite a bit. It does a good job of firing its main weapons, while still retaining 2 long ranged punches. Really, the reason why not to like it is that it fulfills the jack-of-all-master-of-none stereotype just a little too well. Other than that, I think it just adds to character to be driving a haphazard lowtech LIAO field variation of the best machine that the Star League had to offer! 
MAD-3M - I dunno, I don't like it one bit. Hard to speak about it objectively, then. I mean, I'd have to get past my irrational dislike of LL in the first place. It also loses its long-range capabilities, it's the only Marauder that definitely is NOT a Sniper. As a Brawler, the MAD-3D and even the -3L are actually more intimidating...... A point of merit would be that this is the only MAD that can easily handle an alpha-strike without penalties.
So yeah, this is my take on the Marauders. I love the -3R. I am fond of the -3L - it is the only one which I've 'converted' (slight mod of the muzzle on one of my plastic models). I miss the AC on the -3D and don't like the -3M at all. What are your thoughts?
*Disclaimer*: I don't have the same take on overheating as many newer players. I also don't share the view of many old hands that you don't need to get worried until you are some 20 points over. But heck, I for one have NEVER had problems with the heat of a Rifleman 3N! I am going to add a line to my profile.....
edit: November 27th, 2007 - changed title
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
[Last edited by jymset on 27-Nov-2007 05:59; edited 2 times in total]
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2006 15:22 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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My group has witnessed a somewhat strange effect of the Marauder MAD-3R in actual games. The AC/5 is irritating for some reason, perhaps it feels insulting that the enemy would hit you for only five points at long range. People are drawn toward the -3R in an irrational effort to make it stop that plinking by getting inside minimum range. The fact that a MAD kicks for 15 points is remembered only at the moment it happens. If you've got suitable short-range lance mates this can be exploited even better.
The variants are more straightforward. The -3D draws fire away from it's team mates since it's seen as very dangerous. The -3L is never seen as House Liao doesn't really exist. They're just propaganda. -3Ms fight at shorter ranges and require only the attention that any heavy infighter mech deserves, ie. massed fire at point-blank range.
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2006 16:10 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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It's not really that strange. It's one of the dynamics of light-damage, long-range weapons. You know that, given enough time, that plinker WILL do serious damage, and with such a generous ammo load (20 shells is enough for most battles) the plinker will take each and every shot he thinks he has a moderate chance of making.
Correct?
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2006 19:43 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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Quote:
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On 2006-09-19 12:45, jymset wrote:
When I asked myself that question, I caught myself thinking of Nystul's categories in "First Strike" (which should still be elemental reading for any newbie). He talked of 7 categories of 'mechs:
Scouts
Strikers
Skirmishers
Brawlers
Missile Boats
Snipers
Juggernauts
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Damn I missed this. Like it a lot. Will have to dig up First Strike. Been at this for 20 years and you still learn.
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Clearly, the Marauder only ever fulfills two of these roles: Brawler and Sniper. Let's look at the designs in that context:
MAD-3R -
MAD-3D -
MAD-3L -
MAD-3M -
*Disclaimer*: I don't have the same take on overheating as many newer players. I also don't share the view of many old hands that you don't need to get worried until you are some 20 points over. But heck, I for one have NEVER had problems with the heat of a Rifleman 3N! I am going to add a line to my profile.....
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The 3R is the original and one so many love. It is a sniper. It can not fight close. Look at so many of the 3025 70-75 tons, either all long or all short, not both ranges.
Due to the heat issues, armor, more people played it smartly, a sniper. In games I played or ran, either it was untouched, or brutally destroyed in earnest to prevent it from causing so much pain.
The 3D was an attempt for a cool Mech in 3025. I did not like it much. Just lost its flare. Also so many pilots got into trouble, they either fired the LL when not needed or decided to use the PPC vs the LL. They should have done a Stalker design. Drop the LL and and more ML, so choose either long or short.
3M as a GM was fun. Range 5-9 and have fun. The ammo was a bigger issue. None ever really did well, but as a lance support Mech and damage it would dish out. Lovely. As a player give me a T Bolt or Orion for this type of duty.
As for heat, I draw the line at 14, mods and ammo rolls get a little dangerous at that point.
AWAD- So what do you shoot, the Battle Master coming at you or the Marauder blasting you from 12 away?
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 20-Sep-2006 01:35 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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The Marauder's a nice mech...
The Orion's a great 'mech! 
_________________
"The enemy's gate is down."
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2006 11:13 Post subject: ON1-* Orion |
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ON1-* Orion
Great minds think alike, eh mud? Seriously, I had this 'mech planned as the follow-up all along. Not as a competitor to the Marauder though. But I do have a beef to pick with this 'mech, so yeah, let's get started, even though only 4 people replied to my initial post....
There are 2 variants of the base Orion, but really only 1 (I'll get to it in a second). This makes a discussion on them rather short. On top of that, all Orions clearly fall into the single category of
BRAWLER
So there isn't much of a dynamic of changing roles there. So maybe I'll have to look at it from a different angle?
ON1-K - I am not overly impressed by the standard Orion. With its potpourri of weapons, it never really impresses. A base 10 heat sinks should just start ringing mental alarm bells instantly when seen on a design this heavy that does not specialise on fire-support. And really, the effective volume of fire from an Orion is not all that great, especially if you increase the range beyond 9.....
What it does have going for it, is the proportionally HEAVIEST ARMOUR of ALL 3025 'mechs!! There is a simple reason for that: In the original 3025 book, they stuck to the rule (which was later discarded) that you have to be able to allocate all armour points. Ie - you had to be able to use all the mounted armour points. If a design could only mount 7 more points of armour, it was NOT allowed to mount another half ton of it. The Orion oringinally mounted 14 tons of it, the max without conflicting with that rule. However, either due to bad editing, or to the fact that maybe it was not clear yet at that stage that half-tons of ammo were restricted to MGs, the Orion actually mounted 1.5 tons of SRM ammo - 37 shots! This became illegal later (or maybe had always been) so that extra half ton was put into armour at a time when that became legal. Hence the Orion is the only 3025 'mech that mounts its true maximum armour!
But apart from that, I am not impressed with this design. Falling back onto the Marauder after all, that is a design that would always add something to my force (a really cool and powerful sniper). With the Orion, well, there are just too many alternatives.
ON1-V - THIS 'MECH DOES NOT EXIST!!!! According to fluff, the Orion V, as we have it on the RS, is nothing but an experiment. A prototype, if you will. And that is my beef, if you will. I think this design should only, if ever, be used for scenario purposes.
In the fluff, the 2nd SRM launcher was simply added and overtaxed the battle computer. On the RS, the design came through with 3 less tons of armour. So basically, it reduces the main strength of the base design while exacerberating the weak heat dissipation at close ranges.
ON1-VA - ....or production variant of the Orion V. And rightly so. I'll say it up front: this is easily my favourite variant of the Orion. It retains the 2nd SRM launcher but looses the missiles. This enables the armour to stay at the original very heavy full strength and allows for an additional 6 (!) heat sinks.
The fluff cites minor problems in AA work, which apparently the LRM15 worked great in for the original design.
So why do I like this design so much? Well, the variant not only focuses more on the original role (BRAWLER), but in doing so naturally becomes MUCH better at it!
It can wade into the thick of the enemy, protected by good armour and a good medium-range gun and just open up at short ranges, where it will be a horror with solid weapons, good weapons placement and an incredible rate of fire (meaning it won't overheat even if it alpha strikes until kingdom come).
This I like. Sorry, mud, I cannot see a Blackjack (which I love fiercely for on-board performance) or a Jagermech (which I still love for pure style) take it out. Ever.
And it was also my favourite conversion job of my plastic 'mech tinkering!
What do you think?
edit: November 27th, 2007 - changed title
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
[Last edited by jymset on 27-Nov-2007 06:03; edited 2 times in total]
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2006 09:53 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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I like the ON1-V a lot myself, and the other Orions, not so much. The ON1-V is flexible, whereas the other Orions don't have as many tactical options. But first, lets deal with the heat sink issue.
10 heat sinks rings alarm bells on a heavy, you say? But lets sit back and see what kind of load those heat sinks actually have to handle.
1 AC/10 (3)
1 LRM-15 (5)
3 MLs (3x2)
2 SRM-4 (3x2)
At long range, you've can fire your LRMs and AC/10 all day long without running up any heat. Compared with the Marauder, the Orion's got better long range firepower because of this. As for effective range, the AC/10 is a bit worse and the LRM-15 is a bit better than the PPC, so its a wash.
Short range: you've an alpha strike of 15 heat points, which only puts you 5-7 over, depending on movement. Not too shabby for a 22-36 pt. alpha strike. If you need endurance, the AC/10 and some mix of the lasers and SRMs can fire for 9 points of heat per round, leaving you one heat point left over for movement.
Finally, as you point out, the Orion's armor is among the best around. The simple fact is, its damn hard to kill an Orion.
To sum it up, I strongly contest Jymset's assertion that the Orion cannot handle a long range role. Also, I contest his assertions about the Orion variants; in my opinion, they are turtles with a hard shell but too slow to get close enough to a target to fully utilize their short range missiles. Finally, while the Orion has only 10 heat sinks, it uses those heat sinks extremely well and is actually MORE heat efficient than a Marauder and able to use its large weapons more consistently.
[ This Message was edited by: mud on 2006-09-25 09:55 ]
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2006 15:49 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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Hello everybody. It has been a long time.
Basically, using a WWII analogy I view the Marauder as the Panther tank while the Warhammer is the Tiger.
The Marauder is a better more advanced design, but with reliability problems and it doesn't have the aura of the Warhammer.
Yes, the MAD has stronger armor... but the side armor is actually "weaker" than the WHM.. how come?
Because, like the Panther, is regarded as such a formidable threat due to its heavy frontal armor, than the MAD is a fire magnet. Any smart opponent will know is useless to try to disable it from the front and will concentrate its shots at the start of the battle while its offensive potential is still intact on the MAD flanks, the fluff flaw of the autocannon amo link as a weak spot is actually reflected in gameplay
The torso side armor is the same as the Warhammer, with the aggravating circumstance that the MAD draws more fire, and that, as others point out, being most effective sniper, it makes him more prone to stay in a fixed position, wich can be exploited by an opponent to flank it and go for the side shot.
Once the side armor is penetrated, the criticals will disable either the autocannon or blow up the ammo, it has been a long time, but I think that there's only 1 radiator on the torsos.. whereas the Warhammer has a lot of stuff in the torsos that acts as a buffer.. even if you lose a med laser or the SRM rack, you don't lose as much firepower as the Marauder. Once one of the torsos is breached, say goodbye to the autocannon.
I prefer the Warhammer to the Marauder... on paper the MAD is better.. but the key is in the heatsinks, these are vital not to delay heat buildup, but for recovery from heat spikes., the WHM can keep a higher sustained volume of fire.
Also, if you use fluff rules, the armor advantage over the Warhammer is negated by having to remove the extra armor to protect the rotation ring and the AC feed to avoid criticals. It would be just a matter of repositioning armor points, but that would reduce the impressive armor thickness of the torso (basically remove armor from the CT to cover the rear and head.. where the gun should be)
But if you want to depart from the standard humanoid template with all the consequences, then the Marauder would have a torso mounted cockpit, the autocannon mounted in a head turret, and fixed torso structure to pay for all that, wich wouldn't be a tactical disadvantage since the arms have a much wider field of fire than conventional joints. No point in having torso twisting ability... wcih doesn't make any mechanical sense anyway. The way the 'Mech is drawn, it can't really pivot to the sides.
I did the conversion and the math added up.. the downside is that to keep the same level of protection the armor would have to be ferrofibrous.. if stripped to conventional armor... well, the edge over the Warhammer is reduced.
But on the upside you have a good comm systems (initiative bonus) and if the AC/5 was meant to be an AC/7 with 7 points of damage and a base range of 7, then is truly a fearsome 'Mech.
Wether you use house rules or vanilla.. the end result is the same. The Marauder is superior to the Warhammer in some ways and tactical situations, while the Warhammer is easier to use and more efficient in general. The Marauder is a sniper and a command vehicle, the Warhammer a brawler.
[ This Message was edited by: Vampire on 2006-09-27 13:45 ]
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Memento audare semper
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2006 19:52 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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Welcome Back Vampire 
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Feret
Federated Suns
Private
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2006 22:52 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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For the marauders I've always liked the MAD-3M I found it much better at firing with out overheating like the 3D does, but otherwise I'd take the 3R I think.
Secondly,
I agree the onion is no stinker!
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2006 23:45 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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I assume you meant Orion
Another favorite of mine...and another Marauder killer (and WHM killer, since Vampire brought it up), is the good ole-fashioned T-Bolt. The variants on the T-bolt suck though...although a TDR-SS vs. a MAD-3D makes for a well balanced fight.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2006 13:22 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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Quote:
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On 2006-09-25 09:53, mud wrote:
[*snip*]
10 heat sinks rings alarm bells on a heavy, you say? But lets sit back and see what kind of load those heat sinks actually have to handle.
[*snip*]
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Exactly. It just projects the feel of being undergunned. Something that the other variants don't really rectify.... At least the -VA won't ever have heat problems.
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2006 20:13 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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If you want to call an LRM-15 and AC/10 undergunned...I'd say they about match a pair of PPCs at long-medium range. In close a pair of SRM-4s and medium lasers almost matches what the Warhammer has, and outguns the Marauder.
When you don't have a pair of heat-hogging PPCs as your main armament, you can still produce the same damage for half the heat or less.
[ This Message was edited by: mud on 2006-09-27 20:14 ]
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2006 20:57 Post subject: RE: some musings about variants of 3025 'mechs |
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Quote:
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On 2006-09-27 20:13, mud wrote:
When you don't have a pair of heat-hogging PPCs as your main armament, you can still produce the same damage for half the heat or less.
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That's true. But how much ammo do you have? I remember Mechwarrior campaigns where players have refused to use ammo-dependent weapons if the mission pay was low.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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