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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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 Posted: 04-Dec-2006 22:49 Post subject: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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http://www.gamespot.com/news/6162654.html?tag=latestnews;title;0
I did a little fact checking and all the players are real, so this looks like it's at least on the list of things for Congress to talk about.
Which is kind of disturbing in its own right.
All I have to say is, if they're taxing virtual property, I demand the right to pay with virtual money.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2006 01:35 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-12-04 22:49, SaberDance wrote:
All I have to say is, if they're taxing virtual property, I demand the right to pay with virtual money.
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If virtual property can be sold for thousands of real dollars the IRS is going to want real tax dollars. Proving something like that is quite another thing. 
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2006 17:56 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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As I read the article, they aren't talking about sales taxes based on selling virtual items for real money.
They're talking about the collection of virtual property, period.
That or the lines about killing dragons to buy a house were flavor text, rather than actual ideas.
Internet sales are tax exempt for a number of reasons. Some states have work-arounds (Kentucky has the "internet-income/product tax") but those are generally ill-enforced.
Heck, if I wasn't taking a course in Public Budgeting Law, I wouldn't even know the tax existed.
They also talk about "estates" which, since I don't think when people die they sell their virtual goods, I tend to think they're talking about virtual property you pick up in the course of playing the virtual game.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2006 19:04 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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*IF* this ever happens, it will only affect players who sell in-game
items for real-world money. I.e. goldfarmer companies, EverQuest
eBay-ers, etc. People who generate real $$ for the *service* of playing
the game for you. Sell service => get income => pay taxes. Makes total
sense to me.
If Congress tries to tax in-game "assets" that *might* be used to
generate real-world income, players will simply turn away from MMORPGs.
However, a key fact that kills the idea completely -- most EULAs (End
User License Agreements) state that all characters and all "property" in
the game belong to the game-provider, not the subscriber. Hence players
don't own anything themselves, hence nothing to be taxed.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2006 21:16 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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The thing that got the idea started was Second Life. There are people making REAL-WORLD 6-figure incomes designing and selling virtual products there.
Reuters even owns an island in the game.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Dec-2006 21:34 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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I think Congress should really worry about issues that actually mean something. Like oh say homelessness in the US, or the war on drugs or wait NOT VOTING themselves a pay rasie every frigging fracking frelling year...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 06-Dec-2006 02:59 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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You might as well try to tell the ocean to stop taking sand from the beach. 
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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WhizzbangThePowerSquig
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Master Sergeant
Joined: 21-Mar-2005 00:00
Posts: 345
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 09:50 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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What's next? Pay a tax every time you play Monopoly?
It's a game folks, wise up!
Makes me glad I live in Canada.
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All fear Squiggy!
"I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy - okay, give me the bomb." - Ultra Magnus
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 10:48 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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This is a standing committee, Karagin. All they do all day is try to find new sources of tax revenue.
Which isn't a bad idea. The more diverse the tax base, the lower over-all taxes can be since a dip in any one part of the base doesn't mean a collapse in all the others.
For example, if income drops but but productivity rises, we can keep the taxes the same and make up the losses in income taxes with the windfall from the corporate tax.
There are reasons to have different tax structures on different bases to encourgage behavior. The 2001 tax cuts were heaviest in investment and capital taxes to encourage business to expand and halt a recession (we can argue whether it worked some other time).
So there is a balance between expanding the tax base and encouraging certain behavior. There's a technical word for this balance, but it slips my mind for the moment.
And the US is pretty good compared to other modern countries. We only take about 30% of GDP in taxes, a rate only beaten by Hong Kong, Singapore, and a few other east-Asian libertarian outposts.
So the work of the committee isn't a bad thing. In this case I think they just stumbled upon a new source, and they're going to look into it. And probably very quickly learn that taxing MMORPGs isn't feasible (they mention a few reasons for this in thearticle) and move on.
The only reason they don't know it now is because they probably don't play MMORPGs, and I think we can agree that it is good that government agents don't use their computer privileges to slay ogres.
And as for living in Canada, every country has something goofy in its politics and tax laws. Americans just like complaining about ours. Have since the Townsend acts. But give us time, I'm sure we can find something to mock the Canadians with too...
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 11:02 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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AFAIK, the only thing they are considering taxing would be when people move the virtual products into real money. Sort of like a virtual capital gains tax.
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 12:18 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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Looking for things to bring money to the government is bad, it's when they go to far out there in space ideas like this one, taxing in game deals and purchases, that we the people, you know the morons who elected them in the first place, need to stand up and say STOP.
Also again if these elected, not appointed, not divinely given seats, would stop trying giving themselves raises every year then silly ideas like taxing a virtually game for purchases made in it for use by NON-living characters would not be on the dock for them to talk about.
As for what we tax, that isn't the point here, the point is Congress is proving that they are becoming something they were never meant to be when they start coming up with ideas like the one we are talking about.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 14:41 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-12-07 12:18, Karagin wrote:
Looking for things to bring money to the government is bad, it's when they go to far out there in space ideas like this one, taxing in game deals and purchases, that we the people, you know the morons who elected them in the first place, need to stand up and say STOP.
Also again if these elected, not appointed, not divinely given seats, would stop trying giving themselves raises every year then silly ideas like taxing a virtually game for purchases made in it for use by NON-living characters would not be on the dock for them to talk about.
As for what we tax, that isn't the point here, the point is Congress is proving that they are becoming something they were never meant to be when they start coming up with ideas like the one we are talking about.
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It's not a silly idea on paper. The law says that all income is taxable unless it is exempted. Virtual income is still income if it has value. So, it is a relevant question whether this income is exempted the same as: Charitable donations, moving expenses, medical insurance, or any of the hundred other forms of income we exempt. I have a feeling once the staffers dig into this (and I should have been clearer, this is a Staff committee, not a Members committee) they'll recomend an exemption.
Now it's still funny. And I'm perfectly OK with mocking the Congress over this (after all, I posted the article in the first place).
So the Congress is doing exactly what it's supposed to do (raising revenue is a Constitutional requirement for the House, Article I.7.1, and AmendmentXVI.1.1). And the results are humorous. Kind of like watching a proctologist work. He's the butt of many jokes.
As for congressional salary, that's an entirely other can of worms, and one day I need to write a book about how government works, and a full chapter will be devoted to what Congressional Salary pays for. The short form is: everything. And every time we insist on reducing soft-money or lobbyist donations, we force Congressional salary higher because things like flying back to the home district still costs money and the US Government won't pick up the tab directly.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 14:52 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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And after that, I should add that I'm in principle agreed with Karagin, but in this case, I think the Congress has a right and obligation to look into this.
I don't think this is an over-reach like trying to place a tax on internet usage (unconstitutional, Congress is not allowed to set any taxes except Income or Payroll unless approtioned by state) or the restrictions suggested last year on applying Campaign Finance Reform in-kind regulations to weblogs (should be a violation of free press, though the Court has disagreed).
This is just a funny thing that happens in the Sausage Grinder. It isn't the end of the Republic.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 15:53 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-12-07 12:18, Karagin wrote:
...then silly ideas like taxing a virtually game for purchases made in it for use by NON-living characters ...
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Again, as far as I know, the only thing being considered for taxing is when virtual product becomes real money.
Earning 5000 gold in World of Warcraft won't get you taxed. If you then sell that 5000 gold for $700, then that $700 is taxed as income, like if you sold 5000 shares of All Waffles Conglomerated for $700 dollars.
Now, how ANY of this would possibly be tracked/measured, is beyond me.
[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2006-12-07 15:54 ]
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 07-Dec-2006 19:43 Post subject: RE: Can I pay my taxes in copper pieces, or only in gold? |
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Quote:
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On 2006-12-07 15:53, Warhammer: 3025 wrote:
Again, as far as I know, the only thing being considered for taxing is when virtual product becomes real money.
Earning 5000 gold in World of Warcraft won't get you taxed. If you then sell that 5000 gold for $700, then that $700 is taxed as income, like if you sold 5000 shares of All Waffles Conglomerated for $700 dollars.
Now, how ANY of this would possibly be tracked/measured, is beyond me.
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Second paragraph of the article:
That's because game publishers may well in the not-too-distant future have to send the forms--which individuals receive when earning nonemployee income from companies or institutions--to virtual-world players engaging in transactions for valuable items like Ultima Online castles, EverQuest weapons, or Second Life currency, even when those players don't convert the assets into cash.
Though Karagin's point way back when about the people on the game not owning the virtual property and the most recent point about paperwork make this likely to be entirely unenforced except in the case of industries (gold-farmers) which wouldn't report the income because gold-farming is strictly speaking illegal (both copyright violation and a form of fraud and theft).
But since right now no revenue comes from this now, and it is highly unlikely there would ever be enough revenue to justify enforcement costs, I think they'll declare it untaxable.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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