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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 16-Jan-2007 21:48 Post subject: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Okay, using both vanillia versions of these mech, in other words the ones you find in TR3025 Originial, with each having the same piloting and gunnery skills, let's go with average pilots here, 4/5.
The terrain will be a mix of hills with woods, some light woods here and there and two level 1 to level 2 depth water spots.
Which mech has the advantages and which do you think will win?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2007 02:24 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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The Blackjack has an advantage in armor and JJs, Jagermech has heavier firepower, better internal structure and physical attacks.
The probability that the BJ will crit JM's arm are pretty low early in the fight, but once it gets closer the JM is two or three shots away from loosing half of its guns, so if the JM manages to find a decent firing position than it may survive BJ's approach without a scratch, but if the BJ close to JM early and without being softened up by the ACs then JM is on the loosing side.
In close range battle the BJ can use its lasers to match JM's firepower and there is no min range. Paper thin armor on JM's back may come to play thanks to JJs, but due to lower speed of both 'Mechs this may be rare. The JM needs to hit the approaching BJ with at least six AC/5 shots to even the odds in armor, so it will need to keep the BJ out of med. laser range for a while and with the terrain I doubt that it will be able to do so.
I vote for Blackjack, which will probably play more aggressive role in this fight.
[ This Message was edited by: Sleeping Dragon on 2007-01-17 02:27 ]
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2007 05:53 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Couldn't put it better than SD. I only have one point to add:
Ok, the Jagermech has pretty cool looks going for it, but the Blackjack is one of my favourite rides out of TRO:3025, nay, of all time!!
So my vote falls in with the BJ-1 as well!
Besides, there is also the psychological factor of the BJ being 20 tons lighter. There is very little reason to vote the Jagermech here.
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2007 11:42 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Unless the Blackjack pilot is very stupid or very unlucky, he will most likely defeat the JagerMech. The JagerMech will win if the Blackjack stays out of MLAS range, or gets close enough for the JagerMech to kick it. A lucky punch might work too, but JagerMechs are not known for punching.
(For that matter, neither is the Zeus, no matter what the fluff says!)
[ This Message was edited by: CO_17thRecon on 2007-01-17 11:43 ]
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2007 14:38 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Agree with the above with one caveat:
If I'm in the Blackjack, the Jaggermech wins hands down.
That mech hates me. Always has, always will. Ever since that scrap with a couple of P-Hawks where all I could roll were ones and twos...
Contra: if I'm in the Jaggermech, I'm still humped.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2007 17:49 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Quote:
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On 2007-01-17 05:53, jymset wrote:
Couldn't put it better than SD. I only have one point to add:
Ok, the Jagermech has pretty cool looks going for it, but the Blackjack is one of my favourite rides out of TRO:3025, nay, of all time!!
So my vote falls in with the BJ-1 as well!
Besides, there is also the psychological factor of the BJ being 20 tons lighter. There is very little reason to vote the Jagermech here.
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Ditto on everything, including favorite and cool looking.
Only way Jager wins is on an open board that he can continuously back up on. BJ closes only 2 hexes a round. Then the two AC/5 come into serious play.
AWAD- Not much else to say
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2007 09:33 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Quote:
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On 2007-01-17 14:38, SaberDance wrote:
Agree with the above with one caveat:
If I'm in the Blackjack, the Jaggermech wins hands down.
That mech hates me. Always has, always will. Ever since that scrap with a couple of P-Hawks where all I could roll were ones and twos...
Contra: if I'm in the Jaggermech, I'm still humped.
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You in BJ sounds like me in a Hellbringer... they hate me too. I get headshot almost every time I pilot one. I mean wth 
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 25-Jan-2007 20:34 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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One thing you forgot...Jagermech can flip his arms so he can run as well...if terrain is long the long range by-play can last quite a while.
If terrain length is limited then the Blackjack can gain some advantage by utilizing his jumpjets for giving the JagerMech an extra modifier to hit which will work more in favor of the Blackjack than the JagerMech as the Blackjack's main armaments are his lasers while the Jagermech's main armament is his light autocannons.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-Jan-2007 23:07 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Guys the terrain that this battle is being fought in is mentioned...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2007 04:24 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Quote:
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On 2007-01-25 20:34, Seraph wrote:
One thing you forgot...Jagermech can flip his arms so he can run as well...if terrain is long the long range by-play can last quite a while.
If terrain length is limited then the Blackjack can gain some advantage by utilizing his jumpjets for giving the JagerMech an extra modifier to hit which will work more in favor of the Blackjack than the JagerMech as the Blackjack's main armaments are his lasers while the Jagermech's main armament is his light autocannons.
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Aehm. Are you sure that you want to do this? Jagermech has 3 points of armour on side torso rear and 5 on center. The BJ has the AC/2s too. So are you really, really sure?
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2007 09:40 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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What about a Rifleman instead of a Jagermech?
Good job with this one Karagin...sounds like an interesting matchup...
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2007 17:38 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Well, the Rifleman has more armour and better (bigger) guns than the Jagermech. Less range, though.
The Blackjack is still better for its weight, but one feels the extra 15 tons (a third of the BJ's total weight) much more.
Still not gonna call that one, because I happen to love the Rifleman to bits, too.
jymset's spontaneous ultimate dream lance for 3025: BJ, Rifleman, Cyclops, Vindicator/Wolverine [all-time favourite, two best-value buys, and the two all-time runner ups in contest for the last slot]
[ This Message was edited by: jymset on 2007-01-26 17:42 ]
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2007 12:18 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Depends on the variant. I think the N variant (standard) would stack up pretty well. The AC-5s don't have quite the range of the plink-gun AC-2. The Large Lasers can cause some heat problems.
I think that's really the only drawback to the Rifleman. Heat.
The Rifleman can put out quite a bit of hurt at a not bad range.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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jymset
Scavenger
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2007 05:45 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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Yup, the Rifleman is infamous for bad heat handling and bad armour. I found neither to be a problem.
The Rifleman is centered around big guns. It can fire 3/4 of them without overheating one bit. I think that is pretty awesome for 3025. Once the (limited) ammo is gone, one can really start to play around with the heat scale.
The armour is distributed quite nicely, it suffices. The only problem I have with it are the mere 6 points on the head. Which is why I wouldn't use it as a command mech or personal ride in a rpg setting.
I like the vanilla variant much better than the PPC or AC10 toting variants.
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 29-Jan-2007 11:13 Post subject: RE: Jagermech vs BlackjacK |
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The Rifleman doesn't always have the range you'd like to see in a fire support 'mech too. I recently played a scenario where I was using a pair of Riflemen and trying to deal with a Catapult and a couple of Vindicators dropping LRMs on me, and I definitely felt the range difference. I still won though...sent a lance of Cavalry attack choppers around his flank and hammered the Catapult and one of the Vindicators to death with SRMs
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