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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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 Posted: 15-May-2007 12:20 Post subject: Alternatives to I.C.Engines |
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Just curious to see what people think would be out there by this time. I know they say I.C.E and fusion. But I am curious, because we all know that I.C.E is extremely inefficient and the fusion is a expensive engine. So just looking at what we have now which of these are going to show up in the universe and how should they be handled.
Solar power: power taken from the sun engine is similar to the Electric motor
Electric: this has the HUGE benefit of no moving engine parts, I don't know how it works but that is what they are claiming no moving engine parts so no oil of any kind is needed.
Bio-diesel: basically a replacement for normal fuel burns better and cleaner and is generally made from garbage.
Ethanol: Same as Bio-diesel made from organic material usually soybeans or the canola plant.
Hydrogen: a engine made to burn water vapor, decent mileage and can actually be plugged in to a home to power the home as well.
Air: Compressed Air powers a motor with little in terms of moving parts, can be combined with a compressor powered by air and made into a perpetual motion vehicle (being worked on right now, the systems haven't been married yet but he was working on merging the 2 systems so the car will never need to be refueled, it refuels as you drive.)
So I am curious to see what everyone thinks in terms of what will the usage of these be in the b-tech setting, and though a few do classify as combustion engines, most don't, These are all more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels, and considering well need to discover a new Saudi Arabia every 10 years to keep up with our current fossil fuel consumptions, these options are going to be around faster than we think. So by the time we hit the b-tech universe setting they should be refined and perfected.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 13:33 Post subject: |
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Okay as you proably already know the Support Vehicle rules cover these kinds of things. So I am going to ask did you have combat vehicles in mind or average non-military vehicles in mind...(funny how BT makes such a marked difference between the two considering all the military does is apply armor or what a heavier frame for their non-combat arms vehicles, but hey that's not important for game balance...one rule set for vehicles would have been a better option)...the ideas are good ones but we need a little more about what you want to do with everything.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1456
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 16:12 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to I.C.Engines |
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| Stinger wrote: |
...
Solar power: power taken from the sun engine is similar to the Electric motor
Electric: this has the HUGE benefit of no moving engine parts, I don't know how it works but that is what they are claiming no moving engine parts so no oil of any kind is needed.
Bio-diesel: basically a replacement for normal fuel burns better and cleaner and is generally made from garbage.
Ethanol: Same as Bio-diesel made from organic material usually soybeans or the canola plant.
Hydrogen: a engine made to burn water vapor, decent mileage and can actually be plugged in to a home to power the home as well.
Air: Compressed Air powers a motor with little in terms of moving parts, can be combined with a compressor powered by air and made into a perpetual motion vehicle (being worked on right now, the systems haven't been married yet but he was working on merging the 2 systems so the car will never need to be refueled, it refuels as you drive.)
... |
Man, you seriously have to get your hands on Combat Equipment!!
Solar power IS Electric:
You need an electric engine (which has moving parts but a lot less than an ICE) and just have to think about the source of the needed electricity (solar, batteries, fuel cells, overhead lines).
Bio-diesel, Ethanol and Hydrogen are just other sorts of fuel for an ICE!
Modern military vehicles can run on a multitude of different fuels!
(So don't be afraid of filling bio-diesel in your 100t Behemoth!)
Compressed air: "Air-engines" cannot deliver the power to move heavy vehicles that can carry something except its own engine!! And by the way : A " perpetuum mobile" doesn't exist!! You cannot use an engine to move the vehicle and simultaneously deliver the energy to compress the air needed by itself! If you use 50% of the engines output to move the vehicle and 50% to power the compressor you will not get more than 50% of your output as input from the said compressor!!! (This is a
very big generalization that doesn't take into account any loss of energy trough traction and so on!!!)
EDIT: Some spelling.
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 18:37 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to I.C.Engines |
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| Rudel Gurken wrote: | | Stinger wrote: |
...
Solar power: power taken from the sun engine is similar to the Electric motor
Electric: this has the HUGE benefit of no moving engine parts, I don't know how it works but that is what they are claiming no moving engine parts so no oil of any kind is needed.
Bio-diesel: basically a replacement for normal fuel burns better and cleaner and is generally made from garbage.
Ethanol: Same as Bio-diesel made from organic material usually soybeans or the canola plant.
Hydrogen: a engine made to burn water vapor, decent mileage and can actually be plugged in to a home to power the home as well.
Air: Compressed Air powers a motor with little in terms of moving parts, can be combined with a compressor powered by air and made into a perpetual motion vehicle (being worked on right now, the systems haven't been married yet but he was working on merging the 2 systems so the car will never need to be refueled, it refuels as you drive.)
... |
Man, you seriously have to get your hands on Combat Equipment!!
Solar power IS Electric:
You need an electric engine (which has moving parts but a lot less than an ICE) and just have to think about the source of the needed electricity (solar, batteries, fuel cells, overhead lines).
Bio-diesel, Ethanol and Hydrogen are just other sorts of fuel for an ICE!
Modern military vehicles can run on a multitude of different fuels!
(So don't be afraid of filling bio-diesel in your 100t Behemoth!)
Compressed air: "Air-engines" cannot deliver the power to move heavy vehicles that can carry something except its own engine!! And by the way : A " perpetuum mobile" doesn't exist!! You cannot use an engine to move the vehicle and simultaneously deliver the energy to compress the air needed by itself! If you use 50% of the engines output to move the vehicle and 50% to power the compressor you will not get more than 50% of your output as input from the said compressor!!! (This is a
very big generalization that doesn't take into account any loss of energy trough traction and so on!!!)
EDIT: Some spelling. |
Wasn't there a couple French guys in the 19th Century working on a pneumatic engine?
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 18:45 Post subject: |
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| Karagin wrote: | | Okay as you proably already know the Support Vehicle rules cover these kinds of things. So I am going to ask did you have combat vehicles in mind or average non-military vehicles in mind...(funny how BT makes such a marked difference between the two considering all the military does is apply armor or what a heavier frame for their non-combat arms vehicles, but hey that's not important for game balance...one rule set for vehicles would have been a better option)...the ideas are good ones but we need a little more about what you want to do with everything. |
Figures, No I dont have either of the new books. Mostly I am looking at both military and civilian applications. And what people think about thier useage.
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 19:08 Post subject: |
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| wrote: | | A " perpetual mobile" doesn't exist!! |
Rudel there is a guy in Europe (I want to say Spain or Portugal) that HAS developed a car powered by air (sells it for 16K, top speed is 60mps, ugly as sin, and emits pure clean oxygen), this same guy HAS developed a air compressor powered by compressed air. It is only a matter of time before he can make them compatible and create a vehicle that DOES NOT NEED TO BE REFUELED, it will happen sooner than we expect.
Again if you HAVE NOT watched FUTURE CARS on discovery I highly recommend it. there is alot of exciting stuff guys are working on for cars that will be available here very very soon.
And as I was writing this, I had a thought. Could you marry the compressor to solar power and power the compressor, which then refuels the car?
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 21:27 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: | | Karagin wrote: | | Okay as you proably already know the Support Vehicle rules cover these kinds of things. So I am going to ask did you have combat vehicles in mind or average non-military vehicles in mind...(funny how BT makes such a marked difference between the two considering all the military does is apply armor or what a heavier frame for their non-combat arms vehicles, but hey that's not important for game balance...one rule set for vehicles would have been a better option)...the ideas are good ones but we need a little more about what you want to do with everything. |
Figures, No I dont have either of the new books. Mostly I am looking at both military and civilian applications. And what people think about thier useage. |
I like the ideas, BUT given that we have TWO rule sets for vehicles it means more headaches then help. Since they (TPTB) have made the other versions of power sources for vehicles NON-military transferable it limits all of them to support vehicles and second rate MWDA wanna be vehicles. So really the Support Vehicles get the best of all engines and the combat ones are stuck with twice the weight IC Engines or the three types of Fusion engines with the two of them doubling the base price of the vehicle to where it's almost not worth buy.
If you can come with some weights and such for the combat vehicles I would be very interested in seeing some of these in use in the game.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-May-2007 21:53 Post subject: |
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[quote="Karagin"][quote="Stinger"] | Karagin wrote: |
I like the ideas, BUT given that we have TWO rule sets for vehicles it means more headaches then help. Since they (TPTB) have made the other versions of power sources for vehicles NON-military transferable it limits all of them to support vehicles and second rate MWDA wanna be vehicles. So really the Support Vehicles get the best of all engines and the combat ones are stuck with twice the weight IC Engines or the three types of Fusion engines with the two of them doubling the base price of the vehicle to where it's almost not worth buy.
If you can come with some weights and such for the combat vehicles I would be very interested in seeing some of these in use in the game. |
This is something I have been toying with for a while. So I will ask it. Should we come up with alternate rules for everything? Basically a "Mordels Special rule set", Basically we rewrite all the main things were upset with, or tha we want to see better rules for. This can be anythign from LRM's to vehicle construction rules. Is there enough interest in this? I have a few ideas on things. And will have to pick up the new constructions books just so I can see what has changed and what hasent. A lot of it dosent have to be huge changes, just refinements of what we think could be. LRM's come to mind, they have needed to be reworked for a long time, and with a little work I think we could do a excellent job.
Anyway let me know what you think.
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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MEX
Clan Blood Spirit
Star Colonel
Joined: 21-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 440
Location: Austria
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 08:51 Post subject: Re: Alternatives to I.C.Engines |
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| Rudel Gurken wrote: | | Stinger wrote: |
...
Solar power: power taken from the sun engine is similar to the Electric motor
Electric: this has the HUGE benefit of no moving engine parts, I don't know how it works but that is what they are claiming no moving engine parts so no oil of any kind is needed... |
Man, you seriously have to get your hands on Combat Equipment!!
Solar power IS Electric:
You need an electric engine (which has moving parts but a lot less than an ICE) and just have to think about the source of the needed electricity (solar, batteries, fuel cells, overhead lines)... | I asume he meant the MAGLEV trains, which are using magnetic fields to lift and/or accelerate instead of a electric motor.
Maybe you know the Transrapid ?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid
Iran currently has a contract with Transrapid for a 900-kilometer line to link Tehran with Mashhad. The line would take about 3 hours to travel, versus the 14 hours it takes to travel by conventional rail.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 11:23 Post subject: |
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No Mex. Its an electric motor, There is a japaneese electric vehicle with 8 wheels. 8, 100hp, 8, 60kW (1 per wheel, capable of 230 MPH didnt say how long the charge lasted), ELECTRIC motors that they claim have NO MOVING PARTS IN THE MOTOR.
www.greencarcongress.com/2004/11/8wheeling_with_.html
Now granted this was said in the show, and I noticed they said that Hydrogen dosent explode or burn, the hindenburge accident was caused by the paint used on the skin. (mythbusters proved that to be, well, a myth).
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5724
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 13:54 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: | No Mex. Its an electric motor, There is a japaneese electric vehicle with 8 wheels. 8, 100hp, 8, 60kW (1 per wheel, capable of 230 MPH didnt say how long the charge lasted), ELECTRIC motors that they claim have NO MOVING PARTS IN THE MOTOR.
www.greencarcongress.com/2004/11/8wheeling_with_.html
Now granted this was said in the show, and I noticed they said that Hydrogen dosent explode or burn, the hindenburge accident was caused by the paint used on the skin. (mythbusters proved that to be, well, a myth). |
Which part was the myth? the hydrogen blowing up like that or the skin?
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 14:33 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: | No Mex. Its an electric motor, There is a japaneese electric vehicle with 8 wheels. 8, 100hp, 8, 60kW (1 per wheel, capable of 230 MPH didnt say how long the charge lasted), ELECTRIC motors that they claim have NO MOVING PARTS IN THE MOTOR.
www.greencarcongress.com/2004/11/8wheeling_with_.html
Now granted this was said in the show, and I noticed they said that Hydrogen dosent explode or burn, the hindenburge accident was caused by the paint used on the skin. (mythbusters proved that to be, well, a myth). |
Electro-motors have some moving parts
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromotor
And Hydrogen is pretty reactive and reacts rather quickly with oxygen, so if you have any problems with isolation you may be in trouble...
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1456
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 16:02 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: |
Rudel there is a guy in Europe (I want to say Spain or Portugal) that HAS developed a car powered by air (sells it for 16K, top speed is 60mps, ugly as sin, and emits pure clean oxygen),... |
First: You can power a small car going 60 kph (I think mps = meter per second will a bit very fast!!) ! Try [url] www.theaircar.com/ [/url]!
But moving a heavy combat vehicle in battle needs much more power than compressed air will generate.
Second: emits pure clean oxygen????? If you use compressed air you'll have decompressed air after-wards with no more oxygen in it as before!
| wrote: |
this same guy HAS developed a air compressor powered by compressed air. It is only a matter of time before he can make them compatible and create a vehicle that DOES NOT NEED TO BE REFUELED, it will happen sooner than we expect.
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He has developed an electric generator powered by compressed air!
As air can be simply sucked out of the surrounding atmosphere refueling in the sense of air as fuel isn't really required! But you need a lot of energy to compress all the air and you need more energy to compress air than this air will deliver if decompressed in the motor! So you will need electricity or another means of external energy source to run the compressor.
| wrote: |
Again if you HAVE NOT watched FUTURE CARS on discovery I highly recommend it. there is alot of exciting stuff guys are working on for cars that will be available here very very soon.
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But even in FUTURE CARS they haven't shown a "perpetuum mobile", have they? If so they weren't really serious!
| wrote: |
And as I was writing this, I had a thought. Could you marry the compressor to solar power and power the compressor, which then refuels the car? |
That would be possible but solar energy would deliver too few energy to run the compressor while driving but it will slowly "recharge" your air tanks whenever you park your car for some hours!
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1456
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 16:05 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: |
..., and I noticed they said that Hydrogen dosent explode or burn, ... |
What??? There isn't much that explodes and burns more violently as Hydrogen!! 
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8072
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-May-2007 19:00 Post subject: |
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Off to General Discussion... 
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