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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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 Posted: 26-Jul-2013 05:55 Post subject: Fortress II |
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BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
* CUSTOM WEAPONS
Type/Model: Fortress II
Tech: Clan / 3072
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Custom design
Mass: 200 tons
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Cruise Speed: 10.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 21.6 km/h
Armor Type: Hardened
Armament:
2 Arrow IV Systems
2 ER Medium Lasers
2 SRM 6s
2 Grenade Launchers
4 Anti-Missile Systems
2 Anti-Personnel Pods
2 B-Pod*
1 Angel ECM Suite
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Fortress II
Mass: 200 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 80 pts Standard 0 40.00
Engine: 200 Fusion 0 8.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 4.25
Cruise MP: 1
Flank MP: 2
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 10.00
Crew: 14 Members 0 .00
Sponson Turret Equipment: 0 3.50
Armor Factor: 645 pts Hardened 0 80.63
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 20 125
Front L / R Sides: 20 110/110
Rear L / R Sides: 20 100/100
Rear: 20 100
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Arrow IV System Lf_Spon 0 30 2 18.00
1 ER Medium Laser Lf_Spon 5 1 1.00
1 SRM 6 Lf_Spon 0 15 2 2.50
1 Grenade Launcher Lf_Spon 0 1 .50
2 Anti-Missile Systems Lf_Spon 0 30 3 2.25
1 Anti-Personnel Pod Lf_Spon 0 1 .50
1 B-Pod* Lf_Spon 0 1 1.00
1 Arrow IV System Rt_Spon 0 30 1 18.00
1 ER Medium Laser Rt_Spon 5 1 1.00
1 SRM 6 Rt_Spon 0 15 1 2.50
1 Grenade Launcher Rt_Spon 0 1 .50
2 Anti-Missile Systems Rt_Spon 0 30 2 2.25
1 Anti-Personnel Pod Rt_Spon 0 1 .50
1 B-Pod* Rt_Spon 0 1 1.00
1 Angel ECM Suite Body 0 1 1.50
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 0 .00
Cargo Bay Capacity Body 1 .12
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 21 200.00
Items & Tons Left: 24 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 23,521,544 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,928
Cost per BV: 12,199.97
Weapon Value: 2,662 / 2,662 (Ratio = 1.38 / 1.38)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 48; MRDmg = 33; LRDmg = 24
BattleForce2: MP: 1, Armor/Structure: 0 / 46
Damage PB/M/L: 9/7/4, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 19
Specials: ecm, artA
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5724
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 08:47 Post subject: Fortress II |
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my first instinct... if its a Clan design of undermined age, use Lamellor-Ferro armor.
I'd also added from the weight saved an armored motive system.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 09:02 Post subject: Fortress II |
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Here we go again...Wow...talk about deja vu...same weapons as almost all of your other moving pillboxes. Really what game are you playing? Orge? I mean Which variant of the ORGE are you fielding now?
This thing is no different then your other tanks, same issues, slow speed, WAY too much armor, price is a bit lower then your normally range but hell the Banger STILL is cheaper by far, and why did you even bother with the secondary weapons? Those could have gone to refit an Urbanmech and been of more use.
So really which house or Clan is going to be building this thing? It has no real role in the game, we get it you love Arrow IVs, great, we get it, you like artillery, suggest you join the military and become an artilleryman. What point is the Grenade Launcher for this thing? or the A-Pods of B-Pods? Anything gets close to this thing it is dead. Infantry aren't dumb they will stand out of the most of the secondaries and blast this thing with their anti-mech weapons and it's dead.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 09:03 Post subject: Fortress II |
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I will post the Banger and several designs to show how your 200 tons are not worth sinking the resources into.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 16:40 Post subject: Fortress II |
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Here you go did one better then the Banger, this one does the same job for less cost and can even make it to the fight, where as your 200 ton crawling lawn chair would spend the entire battle moving into position to fire.
200 ton tanks may look great and they would make folks feel amazing about their military and look really awesome on the news for the public but they are not worth it in a fight. They are too slow, cost too much and die too fast.
| Code: | BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: A Better Mouse Trap
Tech: Clan / 3060
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 90 tons
Power Plant: 270 Fusion
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Arrow IV Systems
2 ER Medium Lasers
1 SRM 6
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: A Better Mouse Trap
Mass: 90 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 45 pts Standard 0 9.00
Engine: 270 Fusion 0 14.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 7.50
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 4.50
Crew: 6 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 2.50
Armor Factor: 317 pts Ferro-Fibrous 1 16.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 9 96
Left / Right Sides: 9 63/63
Rear: 9 42
Turret: 9 53
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 Arrow IV Systems Turret 0 30 3 30.00
2 ER Medium Lasers Front 10 2 2.00
1 SRM 6 Front 0 30 2 3.50
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 0 .00
1 Trailer Hitch Rear 1 .00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 9 90.00
Items & Tons Left: 14 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 6,462,850 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,923 (old BV = 1,275)
Cost per BV: 3,360.82
Weapon Value: 2,291 / 2,291 (Ratio = 1.19 / 1.19)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 41; MRDmg = 32; LRDmg = 24
BattleForce2: MP: 3T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 12
Damage PB/M/L: 4/4/4, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 19
Specials: artA
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_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 17:22 Post subject: Fortress II |
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Split that in two and we'll talk about efficiency 
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 18:46 Post subject: Fortress II |
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Hey I know two 40 ton vehicles can and will do the job better, point is ATN hasn't gotten that hint. Part two of my point is that you can build better and more effective smaller vehicles that are more likely to see combat and get used and keep the game fun vs turning BT in ORGE.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2013 23:55 Post subject: Re: Fortress II |
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| Karagin wrote: | Here we go again...Wow...talk about deja vu...same weapons as almost all of your other moving pillboxes. Really what game are you playing? Orge? I mean Which variant of the ORGE are you fielding now?
This thing is no different then your other tanks, same issues, slow speed, WAY too much armor, price is a bit lower then your normally range but hell the Banger STILL is cheaper by far, and why did you even bother with the secondary weapons? Those could have gone to refit an Urbanmech and been of more use.
So really which house or Clan is going to be building this thing? It has no real role in the game, we get it you love Arrow IVs, great, we get it, you like artillery, suggest you join the military and become an artilleryman. What point is the Grenade Launcher for this thing? or the A-Pods of B-Pods? Anything gets close to this thing it is dead. Infantry aren't dumb they will stand out of the most of the secondaries and blast this thing with their anti-mech weapons and it's dead. |
Well, there is already a canon 200 ton super heavy vehicle produced called the Destrier. Since the Fortress II is Clan technology, I'd say it is a safe bet the Clans would produce it  Clan Hell's Horses perhaps as they love vehicles.
Weapons like Arrow IVs are good to have on slow moving vehicles as they provide extraordinary reach and, among other things, can fire indirectly at targets. Stuff like the A-Pods are good to use against infantry while the main guns handle other threats.
Generally speaking, based on your posts, here, Sarna, Heavy Metal Pro, etc seem aimed almost solely at getting attention and/or maligning certain positions/posters which doesn't seem conducive for productive posts.
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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 02:40 Post subject: Fortress II |
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<Here you go did one better then the Banger, this one does the same job for less cost and can even make it to the fight, where as your 200 ton crawling lawn chair would spend the entire battle moving into position to fire.>
No, your design lacks, among other things, endurance regarding stuff like armor and ammunition compared to the Fortress II. Many of my super heavy vehicles mount artillery as their main guns because of their slow speed. You don't need to be close or even see the enemy to fire at them with artillery. Clan Arrow IVs can fire out to 102 hexes.
<200 ton tanks may look great and they would make folks feel amazing about their military and look really awesome on the news for the public but they are not worth it in a fight. They are too slow, cost too much and die too fast.>
That is your opinion of course which, by the way, not everybody shares. And blanket statements about super heavy vehicles costing too much and dying too fast is a useless tactical assessment especially when you don't define what is costing too much or dying too fast.
[Last edited by ATN082268 on 27-Jul-2013 03:44; edited 1 time in total]
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 03:43 Post subject: Fortress II |
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By costing too much and dying too fast it's meant that you can put the same amount of equipment in multiple vehicles that will cost less, can be on multiple places at once and move faster.
If I replace the Gauss riffle on Yellow Jacket Gunship with Arrow IV the result will cost well under 1407000 C-bills, which says that for your monster I can have sixteen. Yes, four lances that may not have your armour, but they certainly can move away from danger with their 6/9 speed and will crack your monster's shell anytime. You with that 1/2 speed will have problem avoiding artillery blasts and that doesn't even count in the terrain. Sixteen launchers will simply top your two anytime.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 03:50 Post subject: Re: Fortress II |
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<By costing too much and dying too fast it's meant that you can put the same amount of equipment in multiple vehicles that will cost less, can be on multiple places at once and move faster.>
The problem is that you can do that with virtually any unit.
<If I replace the Gauss riffle on Yellow Jacket Gunship with Arrow IV the result will cost well under 1407000 C-bills, which says that for your monster I can have sixteen. Yes, four lances that may not have your armour, but they certainly can move away from danger with their 6/9 speed and will crack your monster's shell anytime. You with that 1/2 speed will have problem avoiding artillery blasts and that doesn't even count in the terrain. Sixteen launchers will simply top your two anytime.>
See my above. In addition, anyone can customize a force to counter a particular force or unit. Also, I think you are ignoring other factors as well such as other enemy units...
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 04:37 Post subject: Re: Fortress II |
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That is exactly the point. Using a single large unit when you can use four smaller is impractical and it puts you in disadvantage.
You are less mobile, need special equipment to cross chasms and rivers (most bridges don't have the CF to support a superheavy vehicle) and carry less total armour and equipment. This all and your vehicle also is usually far more expensive and is more prone to suffering a single cripling hit even if you count in the hardened armour.
It's like insisting on using a golden spade to dig a trench. Yes, you can do that, but for the gold you could have normal spades that will do the trick and a few people to help (not mentioning the greater maleability of gold). Your fortress might look impressive, but what purpose does it really have?
Plus to my Yellow Jacket example. I'm not ignoring the opposition and they are not customized to defeating Fortress. Sixteen Arrow IV hellicopters will find far more use on any battlefield than two chained to single superslow chassis. Fortress can find only one use and that is static defense and even there it can't stand on it's own. Helicopters and tanks like the Chaparal can do this as well as they still need something that will keep the enemy away (be it a fortification line or a body of regular combat units). Everywhere else you are outclassed. You may send Cavalry Attack Helicopters after me, but the same thing can happen to the fortress. Your tank will offer some resistance and the probably won't penetrate (well, tandem charge is still here) but you'll probably go down from critical hits.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 08:24 Post subject: Re: Fortress II |
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| ATN082268 wrote: |
Well, there is already a canon 200 ton super heavy vehicle produced called the Destrier. Since the Fortress II is Clan technology, I'd say it is a safe bet the Clans would produce it Clan Hell's Horses perhaps as they love vehicles.
Weapons like Arrow IVs are good to have on slow moving vehicles as they provide extraordinary reach and, among other things, can fire indirectly at targets. Stuff like the A-Pods are good to use against infantry while the main guns handle other threats.
Generally speaking, based on your posts, here, Sarna, Heavy Metal Pro, etc seem aimed almost solely at getting attention and/or maligning certain positions/posters which doesn't seem conducive for productive posts. |
Here we go again, what happens on other boards is not here, I am pointing out that the super heavy tanks don't work, just like others have pointed out. Yes they are cool but they don't work. So stop taking things as an attack. And no my post are not for getting attention, which seems to be the case though for your posting. So how about you stop with the attempts at starting an argument or flame war and try and pay attention to the fact that we are offering you ideas and ways to improve your designs. Again look around the designs posted here, you will see comments offered and suggestions made and something called a discussion going on about things. I suggest you try it some time.
Just because there is a 200 ton canon tank doesn't mean it was built to be the end all of things. Think about the context, Davion has been on the retreat and have faced war on three fronts, the line in the text of the 200 ton tank you are speaking of doesn't hold true to Hanse's way of fighting he used shock and maneuver to gain what he wanted as well as putting as many troops on the ground NOT trying to use single heavy unit to win the day.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 18:26 Post subject: Re: Fortress II |
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Indeed. Actually there is an analogue in Earth's history. The Maus.
185 ton monster produced in time of desperation by 3rd Reich to achieve... well not much really. The production devoured a lot of resources that if pured in productions of regular tanks could achive much greater result. In theory it could destroy any armoured vehicle fielded by the allies, but they wouldn't be available in numbers and were vulnerable ot the other ways of attack like airstrike.
That is exactly the problem with the superheavies. They mostly lack purpose or some kind of shtick that nothing else can do. The point in making a unit heavier is to utilise what lighter unit can't use evvectively. Arrow IVs certainly are not that type of equipment as they can be easily wielded by far swifter chassis that won't try to put them in sponsons that will prevent them from firing at the same target most of the time. The vehicle needs to do something that will justify it, like carying cruise missiles, or anti-ship missiles.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 21:25 Post subject: Fortress II |
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Even then smaller vehicles can carry the weapons systems and achieve similar out comes.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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