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Mordel
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Vagabond
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 Posted: 05-May-2015 16:40 Post subject: Wulfen C |
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I expected pulse lasers rather then ERMLs, but yup... XXL to get 10 mp on a 30t just begs for 10 jump mp. Add stealth and a good ranged weapon, and you got trouble.
Very similar to my mech here: mordel.net/barandgrill.php?redirect=viewtopic&t=2400
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 05-May-2015 16:46 Post subject: Wulfen C |
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Okay... more expensive than Warhawk or Turkina... like really? 
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Mordel
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| Posted: 05-May-2015 18:52 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Okay... more expensive than Warhawk or Turkina... like really? |
The Warhawk and Turkina don't go 10/15/10. Can't compare this type of 'mech to mechs much larger that are designed for completely different reasons.
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 00:44 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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No, but anything that actually goes near to this speed using standard components, like Ice Storm, Dasher and other such funnies don't come even close in their cost. After 10 minutes of work... I had to drop some armour and go for a small cockpit, but it 6,7 mil. creds, not 26,2 mil.
EDIT: As an afterthought - XL engine generates far less heat, so you could get additional armour for the DHS.
BTW How does the Wulfen cope for the heat anyway? Jumping generates double heat with XXL engine (p. 309 TacOps) so stealth + full jump = 10 overheat without firing even one shot, so Jump + engaged Stealth is a nono unless you want to hide somewhere next few turns.
| Code: | BattleMech Technical Readout
Name/Model: Wulfen Concept
Designer: Sleeping Dragon
Source(s): Custom Mordel.Net Units
Technology: Clan (Mixed)
Technology Rating: F
Tonnage: 30
Configuration: Biped BattleMech
Era/Year: Civil War / 3067
Rules (Current): Tournament Legal
Rules (Era): Experimental
Rules (Year): Experimental
Total Cost: 6,881,940 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,553
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 300 XL
Cruising Speed: 108 kph
Maximum Speed: 162 kph
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 300 meters
Armor: Stealth
Armament:
3 ER Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking: Unknown
======================================================================================
Overview:
No information provided
Capabilities:
No information provided
Deployment:
No information provided
Variants:
No information provided
Notable MechWarriors:
No information provided
======================================================================================
Equipment Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo Steel 1.50
Engine: 300 XL 9.50
Walking MP: 10
Running MP: 15
Jumping MP: 10
Heat Sinks (Double): 11 [22] 1.00
Gyro: XL (IS) 1.50
Cockpit: Small (IS) 2.00
Armor Factor: 72 4.50
Type: Stealth (IS)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 10 9
Center Torso (rear): 2
R/L Torso: 7 8
R/L Torso (rear): 2
R/L Arm: 5 8
R/L Leg: 7 8
======================================================================================
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Jump Jets RT 5 2.50
Targeting Computer RT 1 1.00
ECM Suite LT 1 1.00
5 Jump Jets LT 5 2.50
3 ER Medium Lasers RA 3 3.00
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Mordel
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 07:57 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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Speaking of cost, what has inflation looked like in the BT universe? I mean, given that we have 80 years between the Dashers of the universe and this, could it stand to reason that the Dasher is like the 5 cent cup of coffee that now costs $1?
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 08:27 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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That's the funny part that the cost list for everything look the same. Since the Sucession Wars the medium laser still has the same basic price tag in the rules, so basic Wulfen bastard is still prohibitively expensive compared to the other things of similar capabilities (points to his previous post).
It's really all XXL engine's fault. 10 times normal cost was fun when it was Maximum Tech's hyperexperimental exngine used to make one of a kind machines, but when you try to present it for standard military hardware it's just prohibitively expensive compared to what it offers over a standard XL engine (which already makes me cringe ocassionally). Seriously it seems to me that designs like this are made to justify that house militaries are shrinking instead of growing in spite of periods of relative economic growth. They are simply throwing the resources out of the window to make the most high tech machine.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 12:09 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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What about this being a Clan design? Do Clans have the same attachment to monetary concerns that their Inner Sphere counterparts do? I mean, at the end of the day, it's all about funding the war machine, so perhaps cost is not an issue?
| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | That's the funny part that the cost list for everything look the same. Since the Sucession Wars the medium laser still has the same basic price tag in the rules, so basic Wulfen bastard is still prohibitively expensive compared to the other things of similar capabilities (points to his previous post).
It's really all XXL engine's fault. 10 times normal cost was fun when it was Maximum Tech's hyperexperimental exngine used to make one of a kind machines, but when you try to present it for standard military hardware it's just prohibitively expensive compared to what it offers over a standard XL engine (which already makes me cringe ocassionally). Seriously it seems to me that designs like this are made to justify that house militaries are shrinking instead of growing in spite of periods of relative economic growth. They are simply throwing the resources out of the window to make the most high tech machine. |
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 15:21 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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The clans AFAIK still use resources allocation for their toumans.
The same performance, actually maybe even a bit better, on a unit built for 1/3 of the production cost, which represents scarcity of the material and extra work time needed for production, is still a valid thing to consider. They may practically be reduced to bartering and trials of possession, but that doesn't change the fact that for a XXL variant they have to trade trice as much other material.
If the XXL actually provided Wulfen with some ability that can't be achieved otherwise it wouldn't be THAT bad, but as it stands. Meh.
The only valid argument in CBT setting, as it currently is, would IMO be the limited transport capacity. Shipyards are AFAIK still overtaxed and suffer the greatest losses whenever something happens. They are also hotly contested among the clans, so you are still trying to squeeze as much firepower in every *insert unit type* bay as possible. Thus I think all these XL engine machines are mostly assault unit glory hogs that may be produced less, but see a lot of action, while technologically less advanced units are churned out in great numbers for militias that might not even be listed in army lists. These militias could have a lot of units, but would have to spread them around the planet to provide reasonable defensive capacities. XXL engine is still extremely overpriced to be practical outside of Solaris 7 arena and even there it might be enough to ruin stables attempting to rely on it too much.
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 17:39 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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| Mordel wrote: | | Speaking of cost, what has inflation looked like in the BT universe? I mean, given that we have 80 years between the Dashers of the universe and this, could it stand to reason that the Dasher is like the 5 cent cup of coffee that now costs $1? |
This is an issue overall in BT.
As it is a game designed around a core set of equipment, BT is basically required to maintain that equipment at its established stats.
If BT used semi-realistic stats, the cost of a medium laser would have dropped during the SL-era, risen during the SW-era, and then dropped like a rock in Clan-era.
Also, other then Clan launchers, their is no refinement of existing technologies that are still widely used. LRMs are the primary example. By 3075, the IS had 25 years of experience with Clan LRMs but their own launchers are just as expensive, heavy, and just as effected by close ranges as ever. At no time did any of the weapons developers take endo-steel, XL engine ceramics, and LBX materials and attempt to reduce the weight of a standard LRM launcher? Or with the advancements made in electronics (tc, bap, ecm, artimies, streak, ect.), no team spent time upgrading the guidance/targeting packages of the standard LRM warhead?
Despite all of its Universe and lore and technological expansion, the BT Universe is very stagnate. It doesn't grow and breath on even a semi-realistic bases. The only things that seem to change over time are the nation's economies but without any inflation what so ever. Every nation was struggling financially to support a military that is laughably small in 3025. The few Mechs produced each year went to replace losses. And even if the houses possessed the knowledge to build new mech factories, their economies would prohibit it. But by 3055, the houses were all starting to churn out new plants, new designs, advanced weapons, and expanding their military forces like a waist line during the holiday season. By 3058-3060, the XL engine despite its cost was the new standard. And new designs were appearing like popcorn on a movie theater floor.
So because it's a game in which the designers refuse to adjust the stats for each era, we instead see economic growth on the part of the houses. So instead of fusion engine and XLs dropping price from 5k base and 20k base to say 3k and 10k base, we instead see the purchase ability of the house suddenly double or triple so as to afford more XL units.
I have long been annoyed by this fact in BT.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 06-May-2015 22:06 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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| Vagabond wrote: | This is an issue overall in BT.
As it is a game designed around a core set of equipment, BT is basically required to maintain that equipment at its established stats.
If BT used semi-realistic stats, the cost of a medium laser would have dropped during the SL-era, risen during the SW-era, and then dropped like a rock in Clan-era.
Also, other then Clan launchers, their is no refinement of existing technologies that are still widely used. LRMs are the primary example. By 3075, the IS had 25 years of experience with Clan LRMs but their own launchers are just as expensive, heavy, and just as effected by close ranges as ever. At no time did any of the weapons developers take endo-steel, XL engine ceramics, and LBX materials and attempt to reduce the weight of a standard LRM launcher? Or with the advancements made in electronics (tc, bap, ecm, artimies, streak, ect.), no team spent time upgrading the guidance/targeting packages of the standard LRM warhead?
Despite all of its Universe and lore and technological expansion, the BT Universe is very stagnate. It doesn't grow and breath on even a semi-realistic bases. The only things that seem to change over time are the nation's economies but without any inflation what so ever. Every nation was struggling financially to support a military that is laughably small in 3025. The few Mechs produced each year went to replace losses. And even if the houses possessed the knowledge to build new mech factories, their economies would prohibit it. But by 3055, the houses were all starting to churn out new plants, new designs, advanced weapons, and expanding their military forces like a waist line during the holiday season. By 3058-3060, the XL engine despite its cost was the new standard. And new designs were appearing like popcorn on a movie theater floor.
So because it's a game in which the designers refuse to adjust the stats for each era, we instead see economic growth on the part of the houses. So instead of fusion engine and XLs dropping price from 5k base and 20k base to say 3k and 10k base, we instead see the purchase ability of the house suddenly double or triple so as to afford more XL units.
I have long been annoyed by this fact in BT. |
This is an excellent, well thought-out comment! I think we see with the technology advancement tables that the ability exists to change equipment by era. The issue is that even when they do, they don't abide by it. For example, they put out new units fielded in the dark age, whose equipment has all been transitioned to tournament legal, yet continue to call it Advanced or even Experimental. Why put out the tables if you choose to ignore them?!?
With costs, there is absolutely no reason they couldn't adjust by era, other than the fact it would add yet another layer of maintenance. But I suppose it would only add that other layer for players, such as yourself, willing to work with it.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 07-May-2015 00:18 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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All true indeed. The costs should have moved but the problem with that is that the combat abilites of the old equipment didn't drop all that dramatically.
A medium laser is still a solid weapon by 3145. It might not have the range of an ERML (much less range and damage of a clan ERML), but it's quite heat efficient and if used in a sizeable battery it can sting just as well as it used to in ages before, thus it's cost might have droped, but relatively to other IS equipment it stays just the same. XXL on the other hand could have gone to something like 4x or even 3x nomal if it went from experimental to dubious production levels. The costls of the new equipment shloud have droped IMO. Not of the old.
The only thing that could move this a bit would be assigning some kind of obsolete label (with penalties) on designs from one or two eras back, so they'd have problems fighting newer equipment. That would, however, complicate things again and old designs could still be retrofited with current MLs and armour and would simply keep appearing in paramilitary forces rather than in house units. Needless to say a carefully updated AS7-D could still beat the cr... out of any of the TRO updates I've seen so far.
True development could have happened if, for example, standard engine went to use LFE weight tables, or went compact (or compact used the standard tables), XL went to clan standard and XXL became merely ISXL standard without that dumb heat leak.
Making XL a new standard simply doesn't do the thing for me as things are at the moment, just like gas turbine it didn't do it in current militaries. Some tanks do use the gas turbine to increase mobility, while others still chose to go with diesel engine for efficiency even though they can afford to use gas turbines. The XL may be paised as a new wonder, but it's still more maintenance intensive and costlier to produce than standard fusion engine. It still needs to be used to get something interesting or it becomes a waste of money on nothing.
BTW clan equipment is slowly getting produced in IS factories AFAIK, but it's still way too complicated for mass production. Which is probably the only thing that keeps the clans from being eaten by house militaries for breakfast... well and them being occupied with the other houses and Blakists.
Sorry for ranting a bit too much.
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 07-May-2015 02:08 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Making XL a new standard simply doesn't do the thing for me as things are at the moment, just like gas turbine it didn't do it in current militaries. Some tanks do use the gas turbine to increase mobility, while others still chose to go with diesel engine for efficiency even though they can afford to use gas turbines. The XL may be paised as a new wonder, but it's still more maintenance intensive and costlier to produce than standard fusion engine. It still needs to be used to get something interesting or it becomes a waste of money on nothing. |
Well, keep in mind the artificial limit the designers have put on unit production and military sizes. If each house can only produce say 300 new Mechs a year and has the military budget to make 250 of them XL then making 250 of them XL is not necessarily a waste of money. Mind you this assumes that the house in question has the overall funds to support everything else a government spends taxes on and still have the above military budget.
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 07-May-2015 02:40 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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This limit has been in place during the Sucession Wars due to limited factory capacities, but I don't remember it being in place after the Grey Death core started to kick the technology forward again (asi it was specifically said to contain info on things like genetically altered crops and factory plans that would allow faster reconstruction of formerly defunct sites and construction of new ones).
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 07-May-2015 03:17 Post subject: Re: Wulfen C |
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Star Wars Saga Edition RPG had a great way to handle the development over time:
| wrote: | Prototype Ship (Template)
Threshold: Size base penalty - -1/2/5/10/10/10/10.
Str: +2
Dex: +2
Int: +2
Speed: +1
Features: Bug in the System - +1 benefit and drawback; Extra Maintenance - 8 hours and DC20 per month or loose ability increases and move -1 condition. |
| wrote: | Advanced Ship (Template)
CL: x1.25
SR: +SR = Size * 5; or +SR = (Size * 5)*2+10 if no shields.
HP: x1.25
Str: Size based mod - +0/2/6/10/16/22/36.
Dex: Size based mod - +0/8/8/4/4/4/2.
Int: +4
Weapons: +1 die.
Features: Requires extra maintenance - 1 day and DC30 per week or move -1 condition. |
| wrote: | Archaic Ship (Template)
CL: x0.66
Threshold: Half value vs Modern Weapons.
SR: When exceeded, 50% chance of full failure.
Weapons: no critical hits vs modern vessels; -2 to-hit vs modern vessels.
Cost: 50% value on black market.
Features: Upgrade - Spend time and ship cost x 0.1 credits plus a DC25 check to remove Archaic. |
| wrote: | Junker Ship (Template)
CL: x0.8
Initiative: -5
Str: -4
Dex: -2
Int: -2 (min 10)
Features: Patchwork - -2 DC on Mechanics checks; System Failure - Each -1 condition move knocks out a system. |
It allowed a standard set of ship stats and game mechanics while allowing development.
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