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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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 Posted: 28-May-2016 12:28 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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We looked at those rules. It requires players make choices during the move phase, which is something Scott wants to avoid.
If you can show how the rule that Scott is using can lead to abuse I'm sure he'd love to hear it.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 12:36 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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| Chunga wrote: | "Charges/DFAs are automatic, so take that into consideration when you move somewhere."
I think it needs to be much more clear that you mean those types of attacks HIT automatically.
I've written and rewritten two WALL O TEXT posts already and deleted them. I think these are bad rulings that are prone to abuse. You've removed acceptable risk from players with low init rolls. Use the SIMULTANEOUS
MOVEMENT rules from Tac OPs, p215. |
So, I actually talked this over with chihawk for quite a while before deciding to go with that. The primary reason I did was because it's what was used for his PBeM games in the old days. I couldn't find a scenario in my old PBW games to see how I may have done it back then. Because of that, I went with what was last done. But I'll agree it didn't "feel" right to me.
Now, one thing I'm trying to achieve with this is a way to get all declarations from players and have results done without the need to ask a player how they want to handle something. With that in mind, I did look at the rules for simultaneous movement and wasn't keen on having to ask a player if they wanted to Charge/DFA, or if they'd prefer to end one hex short. Again, because it involves input to some degree, and if for some reason the player is unavailable for a couple days, it slows everything down. Plus, I plan on scripting a lot of this so folks can play this style of game on my site without the need for a GM.
Having said all of the above, I'm not really loving the idea of having an automatic hit for two reasons:
1) Very little in BattleTech is automatic, and the things that are require dire circumstances, such as a 'Mech being shut down. And think of a far-end-of-the-spectrum scenario of a 'Mech missing a leg and having a gyro hit, maning to stand, then jumping and successfully destroying a 'Mech due to an automatic DFA. The very thought of that makes me cringe. And the fact it can happen here tells me it's broken.
2) There's little drawback to a player taking a 'Mech that is 1/5. Sure, you may fall down when hit for 20+, but you're gonna really lay down the damage with little drawback for taking that high pilot. Having an automatic hit rewards those pilots far too greatly.
So, what are the other options:
Rolling for Charge/DFA as normal
I initially wanted to go with this, but there are some serious side-effects to missing the DFA, most notably you automatically fall. That's a seriously shitty side-effect to something that you have no control over because a player moved where you wanted to move. To me accidental is "I did all I could to avoid it, but just wasn't able to!"
Ending the 'Mech's movement one hex short
I had this initially, but didn't really like the way it played out. It wasn't realistic enough, and there wasn't enough carnage. It made sense in the regard that a player who never left the hex stays in it. Though that had drawbacks as well, as there was no real incentive for a player to leave a hex as he couldn't be moved out of it since he occupied it from the previous turn.
So, here's my possible solution, and I'd love all feedback (chihawk, I already know you prefer the automatic hit for the reasons we talked about yesterday):
1) As indicated previously, players will be displaced off the map edge (and considered destroyed) if they are in one of the edges and a successful Charge/DFA/Push would move them in that direction. That's a definite as there needs to be a consequence to going somewhere to protect your back. At least something that makes you think twice about it.
2) If player A moved first and occupies a hex player B also wants to occupy (and B moves after A), the chance for a possible accidental DFA/Charge exists for player B onto player A. Note that this is also true if player B moves after player A, but player A declared he wanted to stay where he is. Because player A has not moved out of the hex, he will still be in the hex when player B tries to move into it.
3) When the possibility for an accidental Charge/DFA arises as a result of the points highlighted above, the standard rules will be followed and will be applied during the movement phase. All results happen immediately, so location, damage, etc. This means players will still have the ability to fire weapons and perform additional physicals afterwards.
4) When the Charge/DFA misses, this is where I'm having a problem. I do not like the automatic fall for a DFA the player might not have wanted to do. Nor do I like the fact that a charge is just a placement and there's no roll at all required. It seems like two extremes to me. But there also needs to be some consequence to moving into an occupied hex. So, my thoughts are that any missed accidental Charge/DFA requires the attacking player to make a standard piloting skill roll. All effects remain, so pilot + movement type + gyro/actuators/etc.
I personally think this strikes a good balance by making a player think about how they want to split up the gunner/piloting skills; it essentially makes a good piloting skill an effective strategy, just as it is in the normal game play. It requires players to think about where they want to move, particularly if they move early and a player near them moves after; but it also requires them to factor in differences in piloting. Maybe player B has a crappy pilot, so player A isn't afraid to move into that hex he knows player B may want. It also strikes a balance of having an automatic Charge/DFA roll occur and potentially missing. Player B isn't automatically screwed.
So, thoughts? What do folks think of the above? I'd love to hear why you like it or hate it! It's what I'm leaning towards, so you'll need to convince me why the above is bad.
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chihawk
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 13:24 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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Of all the things we went back and forth about a player abusing the rule wasn't brought up by either of us, so I'm interested in hearing how that would even be possible.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 15:20 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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or add a toggle that asks whether a player wishes to charge/dfa or avoid it as they declare their movement.
ie: run 1504F6, no
If yes, then roll for charge/dfa and its effects
if no, stop them short.
Done.
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Chunga
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 16:30 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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I like Vagabond's idea.
It's 3pm here and the BBQs are starting soon so I don't have a lot of time to write this out today.
I think Mordel already brought up a couple of abuse points.
My quick thoughts are that I think we've proven in just these 8 turns that you CAN determine where your opponent is going from time to time. Now, another player with a higher init roll can PLAN to take that hex, and they get a free auto-hit attack in it. And there's nothing the other player can do about it. No matter their move mod or terrain or whatever. To me, and I get the sense you feel differently, that's abusing the rules.
What happens if I knock over Daishi100 this turn (not withstanding the magic lucky horseshoe that Daishi100 seems to have jammed up Mordel's butt to pass all his PSRs) and the jump into his hex next turn? I get a free auto DFA?
Mordel, you're playing a play-by-web BattleTech game with blind movement. This is not a game for n00bs. Yes, falling from a failed DFA attack is shitty, but so is having another mech walk backwards into you for a full strength charge attack.
It's all about Acceptible Risk. Allow the players, both low init and high init, to make their choices. Don't just say that low init loses.
I know that's all terribly simplistic, but I have to go. I'll try to get on again tomorrow but I don't know. If not, have a good holiday.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 17:22 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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To chihawk's point, I think the determining factor on if a rule is good or not shouldn't be based solely on if it can be abused. It's a factor, but not the only one. Personally, I think the ability to automatically succeed on a charge/DFA when you knowingly take a shitty pilot opens it up to abuse.
Chunga, if it makes you feel better, I did actually make the to-hit roll for his charge initially, and he hit you on that as well. So for this particular turn, you were getting smacked no matter what. You actually got lucky I wasn't playing the "displaced off the board" rule at the time.
Having said that, I do like Vagabond's idea. The fact it was so simple is probably why I didn't realize it. I do believe a decision to DFA/Charge can ultimately be dependent on who is in the hex when you get there, but even that can theoretically be accounted for. For example, you can declare a "Jump to hex XYZ and DFA only if the player in it has an effective piloting of 5 or higher."
What should the default be when nothing is declared? Because I know that will be the case in 95% of the scenarios, mostly because people just aren't thinking of it. I'm inclined to say that any lack of a declaration means you end up one hex short, and no Charge/DFA is rolled. But the GM side of me wants to see some level of damage and dice rolling (this is a game centered around destruction), and wants to say that a lack of a declaration results in a Charge/DFA roll.
Thoughts on that?
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Mordel
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 17:29 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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To add another point, if we go the route of the rule similar to how it is writtenin TO, it would also mean your declared Charge/DFA happens as normal, after weapons fire and during the physical attack phase. That's definitely more akin to a normal BT game, and therefore generally more well received and less confusing to players.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 28-May-2016 17:39 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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Sorry for the ramblings... After reading the rule again, there's one caveat to this. The rule states the following:
"The player that wins the Initiative can either occupy the hex or force the other player to occupy it and can immediately announce such a physical attack (Charging, Death From Above and so on), provided the unit could normally make such an attack."
The way I was playing it is the player that lost occupies and the winner ends one short or charges/DFAs. The way the official rule is, is that the winner ultimately gets it and the loser is one short, OR the winnder lets the lower claim it and does the charge/DFA.
So, to be clear, we'd be taking the whole rule, including that piece. If you're initiative order is before mine, and we claim the same hex, I get to decide if I simply take the hex and you are one short, or I let you take it and then charge/DFA.
In light of that, I think the decision that would be taken far more often would be to claim the hex, and the opponent is one short. So that is what the default would be if nothing is declared.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
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| Posted: 29-May-2016 13:43 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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Would like to see it handled as two charges. Each mech in the collision gets to make a charge attack against the mech in the claimed hex. Once that is all finished, mech positions are handled by initiative, with the loser of initiative ending up one hex short.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 29-May-2016 16:06 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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| Pinhead wrote: | | Would like to see it handled as two charges. Each mech in the collision gets to make a charge attack against the mech in the claimed hex. Once that is all finished, mech positions are handled by initiative, with the loser of initiative ending up one hex short. |
Wow, you're brutal!!! 
After talking with chihawk yesterday for a while, I'm gonna use the rules as defined in Tactical Operations for simultaneous movement. Naturally the rules don't cover what happens when a player attempts to move into a hex occupied by a 'Mech that never left it that turn. So there are three different scenarios which can occur:
1) Both players try to claim the same hex in the same turn. In this scenario, the player with the better initiative roll gets to decide if they want to claim the hex, or Charge/DFA the other player. In the absence of any declaration, the default will be to claim the hex. When claiming the hex, the player with the lower initiative roll ends up one hex short of the target. If the player who won initiative declared a Charge/DFA during declaration, then it's rolled as normal during the physical attack phase.
2) A player tries to claim a hex already occupied by a player who's movement that turn was to stay in the hex, AND the player moving into the hex lost initiative (moved before the player). In this scenario, the player simply ends the move one hex short of the intended target.
3) A player tries to claim a hex already occupied by a player who's movement that turn was to stay in the hex, AND the player moving into the hex won initiative (moved before the player). In this scenario, the player entering the hex gets to decide if they want to end one hex short, or Charge/DFA the other player. In the absence of any declaration, the default will be to end one hex short. If the player who won initiative declared a Charge/DFA during declaration, then it's rolled as normal during the physical attack phase.
That's it in a nutshell. Sticks mostly to the rules in TO save for the rules about what happens when a player doesn't leave the hex. But those aren't specified, so I did what I think makes sense. Let me know of any questions.
I plan on implementing this for the next round of movement, along with the new rule about the map edge; which I initially was gonna hold off on, but might as well kill two birds with one stone.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 29-May-2016 18:31 Post subject: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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And then there were 5...
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 29-May-2016 18:56 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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| Mordel wrote: | | And then there were 5... |
That kill should belong to Jymset and not split. That's the benefit of shooting second.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 29-May-2016 20:07 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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| chihawk wrote: |
That kill should belong to Jymset and not split. That's the benefit of shooting second. |
For shits and giggles I removed all the damage done by Chunga, and then used the dice rolled to determine the damage location and any possible criticals. Now, the last MPL on the right leg would not have had a critical chance, so it shifts everything from that point onward up. After doing all that, I determined that without Chunga's initial damage, neither the Hip nor the Upper Leg Actuator would have been critted. Without those crits, Daishi would have made his piloting skill roll and would still be alive as he died as a result of the fall.
So, on the surface, it looks like Chunga played no part in that, but in actuality he did. And the fact I just spent 30 minutes trying to figure all this out is why the rule states that any player who hit the target in the turn he dies during the con/pilot checks of that phase gets a split with the kill.
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chihawk
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| Posted: 29-May-2016 22:03 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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You spent like 3 minutes doing that while we chatted on Facebook 
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
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| Posted: 30-May-2016 12:21 Post subject: Re: Preseason - Game Discussion |
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| Mordel wrote: | | Pinhead wrote: | | Would like to see it handled as two charges. Each mech in the collision gets to make a charge attack against the mech in the claimed hex. Once that is all finished, mech positions are handled by initiative, with the loser of initiative ending up one hex short. |
Wow, you're brutal!!!
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What is so brutal about that? If twp mechs are moving and they run into each other they essentially charge each other.. If a moving mech hits a stationary mech (even unintentionally) it should be a charge. The stationary mech gets no charge attack because well... he is stationary..
In the method you set up, what if I move, declare that I am OK with an unintentional DFA or charge and don't run into the person? Do I lose my weapon attacks?
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