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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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 Posted: 08-Jun-2003 05:04 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Well, great that somebody is interested.
And there's another bonus. Spreading a salvo of missiles between several opponents.
Think about it, as missiles are fired sequentally in 2s, 3s, and 5s (or in singles in the case of the smallest launcher in each cathegory) you could spread the salvo between different opponents.
For example, you have an LRM 15, and fire 3 groups of 5 missiles each at three different targets. You roll To Hit for each missile flight, and then how many missiles hit according to the appropiate number of missiles in the Missile Hit Chart.
Only catch is that I would apply the penalization for multiple targets to every missile flight in this volley, +1 to the To Hit number to all rolls.
And for those that want a canon justification for everything, remember that the Atlas LRM 20
has just 5 tubes that fire 4 salvos in rapid succession.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 23-Jan-2004 11:03 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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I used these rules recently and I realized I suck at math. Edited the tables above to give the correct range bands for missiles, borrowing from Max Tech tables for weapons with the same short range.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 23-Jan-2004 13:58 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Added Heat, Tonnage and Criticals for MRMs, let me know what you think
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 23-Jan-2004 15:12 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-15 08:43, Vampire wrote:
Now due to targetting constraints, and the need to simplificate and stardadize ammo feed mechanisms and ammunition reloading, there must be by neccessity certain launcher sizes.
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simplificate and stardadize, eh? 
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 24-Jan-2004 15:14 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Edited SRM ammunition values above, I must have copypasted the MRM values by mistake because ammo loads were too short.
now the revised values are much better, you lose some shots per ton but have some added damage.
some MRM launchers are easily interchangeable with existing SRM or LRM , wich is more in line with their original fluff, and add a new range of weapons configuration for missile armed 'Mechs.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 12:11 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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[quote]
On 2004-01-24 15:14, Vampire wrote:
Edited SRM ammunition values above,
[/quote]
I read your "simplificated and Standardized" tables. I like them. I also, as a native english speaker, pronounce you fluent you are able to invent words that work like a native 
I suggest that, if you are going to allow different groups to go to different targets, you use the mthod that mech warrior use for auto matic weapons. A weapon capable of autofire or "burst fire" automatically losses a burst between targets. (total of 20 shots would be 4 bursts of 5. 1 burst on the first target, 1 burst hits the space between targets, then 1-2 bursts on the secons target)
remove the multitarget penalty. Require all the targets to be in the same arc of fire.
[ This Message was edited by: Rarich on 2004-01-26 12:14 ]
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 16:05 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Quote:
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I read your "simplificated and Standardized" tables. I like them. I also, as a native english speaker, pronounce you fluent you are able to invent words that work like a native
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Ok, you and mud, stop making fun of my english , I would like to see you trying to learning Spanish irregular verbs
Quote:
| I suggest that, if you are going to allow different groups to go to different targets |
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I pointed it out mostly as a curiosity, hard to imagine when it would be useful to spread the salvo among several targets, unless you have a high target number and you are firing them in a wide spread (multiple targets) in the hopes it hits anything.
Quote:
| you use the mthod that mech warrior use for auto matic weapons. A weapon capable of autofire or "burst fire" automatically losses a burst between targets. |
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Well, if that feels good for you from the viewpoint of game mechanics, use it. I stress that the firing by salvos of missile launchers allows for fire at multiple targets. There are no "lost" missile flights in between targets, like when you spray with a machinegun and lose bullets by walking fire from target to target, rather, each group in the full salvo goes their own separate ways, it's possible but you are going to drive nuts the targetting computer.
That's why the +1 of multiple targets modifier, and of course, all targets must be in the frontal arc.
The two uses I can think of for this, is spreading fire on purpose to get more to hit rolls if target number is high , or to defend against swarming attacks, like said, and Archer firing 8 x 5 LRM groups at an horde of Savannah Master hovercrafts.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 912
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 16:46 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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After playtesting I finally got the ammo loads for SRMs right. In the first draft, there was too little, in the second too much.
Why it was changed? Game balance reasons, but there's much more involved that simply saying "hey, this is munchy, let's trim it down a bit"
Now a single SRM is twice the weight of a
LRM, roughly 16 kilos vs 8.
So the math works as follow, compared with a LRM you get 1/3 of the range, 1/2 the ammunition in exchange for a x3 increase in damage.
Makes sense under game mechanics and fits in place with calculations about warhead size and effectiveness and rocket fuel.
So this is a nasty fat rocket filled with a lot of explosives, think 5 inch Zuni rockets. The warhead explosive content is big enough for blowing up stuff and people besides punching holes in armor, so it's a good area effect weapon. In fact, that would be it's prinary purpose, with piercing armor a second.
Now before you military types, weapons buff and rocket scientists point out that with 15 kilos you can get enough propellant
to put this baby in orbit, I'll concede that, yes any average AT missile around that weight can reach a range of 2000 meters, BUT
let's remember a couple things:
1) This is Battletech. Even without counting the technological decay that makes targetting at long distance difficult (over 2000 meters) , SRMs are *Short* Range Missiles, they were never meant to be fired
with accuracy at ranges greater than 1000 meters (for range comparison purposes with reality, please accept the convention 1 hex = 100 meters). Moreover,Battletech "missiles" ain't guided missiles, but rockets fired on a preset ballistic trajectory, they can make adjustments in flight to keep to the plotted fire solution when the trigger was pressed. They aren't crude unguided rockets, but they aren't smart either.
The missile can certainly reach double the effective range before it falls to the ground, if it doesn't crash with something before, or the warhead doesn't have a self destruct fuze to avoid leaving live ammunition lying around (like the RPG-7 has)
So yes, the missile will have more fuel than what's needed for it's *effective* range
2) The SRM missiles must pack a lot of explosive compared with a present day equivalent. All that HE is neccessary to blow up buildings, strongpoints, infantry..etc, missiles are the artillery of 'Mechs.
And second, let's think for a moment, if Battletech missiles were a fraction as effective as their modern day counterparts , it would be not necessary to fire dozens of them at a target and hoping for the best. They must have a much heavier warhead to damage Battletech armor.
All that explosive decreases the amount of fuel available in the missile body.
All this technical stuff is just to show you there's a basis for the numbers used in assigning damage and range values, and ammo loads and that I haven't pulled the numbers out of thing air and played with them until they looked nice
Well, iI must go now, I'll type up a list of pending questions :
Q:- Why no SRM 8 ? (or 10 or whatever)
A: - Because it was munchy and because of safety reasons (it's explained in one of the first posts)
Q:- MRMs have been reduced in range. Why?
A: - Game balance, and 1-4 is the real "medium" range band, and one unheard of in LvL 1. Remember they do 2 points of damage per missile.
That's all for now. Short Range Missiles are another thing I have to examine in depth.
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 26-Jan-2004 18:44 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Well, the problems with missiles have always been the following:
Unloved: Everyone loves the big lasers and PPCs, and a few can't get away from the Dakka, despite the weakness of Autocannons (And by 3050, they were *done*). but nobody really jumps up and down, to go, "Oh boy, new missile boats!" The intrest was always low.
Time-consuming. Unlike most weapons (I hit! Where at? Next shot!) the damage was both variable and took forever to work out. (Okay, that was an LRM -20? You hit? Now for how many. Okay, now to break those into damage groups. Okay, now, first group goes here ... was that the 5 pt or the 1? Okay. And the next grouping goes where? Right, now, we have *another* grouping, but it only ... no, wait. This one still does five, it's teh NEXT one that deals 1, right?) ... Missile resolution drives men mad, and Heaven forbid you double-tap a pair of SRM-12's and score 10-ish hits. You're gonna be there all *day*.
Unimpressive range: The laser is a medium-range, high heat weapon. Teh AC is a medium-range, LOW heat weapon, with ammo. The missile rack is a long range, medium hat weapon with ammo. The little bit of extra range doesn't seem enough.
Perception: This final one is tricky. Most modern players tend to think of missiles as, well ... missiles. Nice lil' direct fire things that go FWOOSH! and then explode after shooting straight ahead at Mach 2. Battletech "Missiles" are more like rockets, with *very* poor tracking and targeting onboard. You just shoot a cloud of them generally over that-a-way and hope for some contacts. To use the term that most applies, these are less missiles than "Anime Corckscrews", which twist and fly slow enough that some can be dodged, but they weave all OVER the place.
Trying to fix this isn't easy.
On damage groupings, I propose making LRMs all a variant of 6 (LRM-6, 12, 18, and 24), with a 'Hit' generating a hit location for each 6 fired. The damage inflicted would be a simple d6, thus keeping the random nature, but getting rid of charts and such. Much faster and easy to remember for new players. (LRM-12? Okay, two hit locations, doing a d6 to each. Got it.)
On SRMs, I don't know yet. You'd probably do it the same way, but with the launchers being set up much lighter.
Or you *could* do away with SRMs completely, and just use LRMs for all missile-releated weaponry.
To get the range up better, I'd use the 10 method ... 1-10 (Short), 11-20 (Medium), 21-30 (Long) ... really let them reach out and say hello. You should *never* be able to close on a missile boat before it can fire a volley or two at you. Teh minimum range shoudl stay high (6 still works), to discourage them from being wonder-weapons.
So, I guess it'd look something like this:
LRM-6: 3 heat . 0-10 (S), 11-21 (M) 21-30 (L), 6 min, 3 tons, 20 ammo
LRM-12: 5 heat, 0-10 (S), 11-21 (M), 21-30 (L), 6 min, 6 tons, 10 ammo
LRM-24: 9 heat, 0-10 (S), 11-20 (M), 21-30 (L), 6 min, 12 tons, 5 ammo
Couldn't get the LRM-18 to work off the top of my head (120/18 = ... ack! ), but, the rest should work out fine.
The LRM-12, for example, averages 7 damage per volley for 5 heat, at 7 tons (For launcher and one ton of ammo) ... comperable to a Large Laser, PPC, or AC-5. Better range, but the damage spreads to two locations, rather than one. Fits in well.
-- Old Dog, sorry about the threadjacking, Vamp!
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2004 06:34 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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OMFG!!!! OD!!! You Live!!!???? And you couldn't get a message to us????
It's good to see ya.... 
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 27-Jan-2004 08:35 Post subject: RE: Reworking missiles |
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Hello Henry!
Arf ... arf arf ... woof arf bark?
There.
Secret Dggie Message for you.
-- Old Dog, dancin' doggie.
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