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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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 Posted: 13-Apr-2004 15:36 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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and i know somebody did this before but i am doing it again...
stats for a GUA-8/A if BTed [straight]
30mm RAT Cannon: heat *: dmg 5/3*: min *: range 11/22/33; mass 0.28: crit 3: ammo 280: cost *: bv 1137: variable fire from 1 to 140 attacks per round. Jams on a roll of 2.
heat: i could not figure so put either 1 or 0.
damage: 5 at short and medium and 3 at long.
min: i have no idea.
cost: see min.
each attack is 1 combat mix attack of 1 IHE and 4 IAP. this version uses Tugsten Penitrators over DU to keep in line with the BT somewhat. i sight i read stated that Tugsten was 20% less effective then DU meaning the use of DU would boost the damage from 5/3 to 7/4.
ok, any body what one?
and this clearly shows that using real world weapons just dosen't fit into BT.
[ This Message was edited by: Vagabond on 2004-04-13 15:37 ]
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 13-Apr-2004 17:13 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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I think that somewhere it does state that all the AC's do shoot in bursts. Though I'm not sure where. I have always played under the assumption that they fired one shell per shot. If they were to shoot in bursts then you could use the burst fire rules in the Mechwarrior game.
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 13-Apr-2004 17:21 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Think of it more as a three to five round burst per "shot." As long as the pilot is trained to hold the gun steady they shouldn't scatter too much.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 13-Apr-2004 17:46 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-13 10:51, Oafman wrote:
The fluff the the ACs alwasy said something about bursts, but I always ignored that and just thought of them as traditional cannons. Easier to get your mind around especially when the Ultras and RAC came out.
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Think on it this way...we have sem-auto rifles that fire once with each pull of the trigger...then we have assault rifles that can fire hundreds of rounds a minute...then we have machine guns that can (usually) fire even faster...then we have miniguns that can fire thousands of rounds a minute...
Now, considering that, why is it so hard to consider autocannons as mutli-shot weapons, and the ultra and RAC versions just faster firing ones? 
Ruger
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
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| Posted: 13-Apr-2004 17:51 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Also, the rounds have to cluster together to do damage (reference the first 'Mech trials when Merkova tank shells just bounced off the half inch or so thick armor plating...shells which would have torn through several inches of standard armor plate)...this is one of the primary ways we can explain why autocannons have such short ranges...the need to cluster the shots together versus recoil...and it also explains why smaller autocannons have longer ranges (smaller shells generally equate to less force acting against the firer, thus they can group their shots together better at longer ranges)...
Ruger
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 13-Apr-2004 20:08 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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that has to be the best explination of why ACs are ACs and weapon ranges are so darn short.
thx.
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Feral
ComStar
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2004 07:06 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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For the record, in level 3 rules autocannons can use searching fire or hit multiple targets ... leading me to believe that the designers definitely believe that AC's are cyclical firing weapons
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2004 10:36 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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after some more thought on the subject, i guess it is logical that ACs fire burst in order to do damage. look at thew evidence provided by ruger coupled with the fact of recoil topped by the fact a guass does 15dmg for a single shell at speeds up to what mach V. that is a heck of alot of speed. easily 3 times faster then muzel velocities of modern cannons. my guess is do to the nature of mech armor being ablative that a single shell does less damage over all because most of the kentic and explosive force is taken away as the armor flakes off. meaning a bigger single shell shot does less overall damage as 50 to 80% of its damage potential falls away. where as a multi-shot cannon, which uses multiple rounds, could retain most of its damage potential by hitting multiple points close together at once. how this works to increase the damage potential i am unsure of, but it would seem that that is the theroy behind ACs and there limited range. by using a smaller caliber higher velocity round in bursts, like the avenger, you can maintain a low dispurtion ratio that is designed to exploit the mech armor's nature. the guass being the exception do to its much much higher muzzel velocity that allows for shear kenetic impact that smashes away armor.
thats my outlook atm anyway.
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Feral
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2004 11:46 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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While I agree that an auto-cannon would be much more effective at stripping off abalative armor ... it definitely won't do as much damage a big ol' shell once the armor is gone. Also with a large enough round abalative armor is pretty much ineffective ... there is a limit to what it can do.
The real gain from abalitive armor is protection from explosives ... as it can more or less nulify much of the bang.
Regardless taking the weight of the ammo into account an AC20 must be at least 40mm ... and possibly 50mm ... autocannon (meaning firing many of these a second) ... while the AC2 is probably the equivalent of a modern day .50 cal.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2004 13:43 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Here's the size quotes from the BMR on ACs:
Light Autocannon range in caliber from 30mm to 90mm and heavy autocannon may be 80mm to 120mm or larger. Now a 3 round burst ac/2 is going to need a larger shell size than a 5 round burst ac/2. That same token can be said for any AC size. Now on to the "burst" argument. The AC/s fire in the same kinda mode as a modern sub machine gun that fires in 3 round bursts, like the MP5 or several H&Ks. Heck even most modern assault rifles have a fire rate selector of 1, 3, or full auto settings. Moving to the Ultra and RACs. An Ultra AC is the same as a standard AC except that it has a fire selector that when on fires a second burst immediatly after the first from 1 press of the firing stud. Now the RAC is just a giant gatling version of an AC, each barrel loads in a casset and then as it rotates around the casset is shot off and ejected, thus you have multiple barrels and a slightly more advanced breach mechinism. Pretty easy to build though considering we've had gatling guns since the 1800s. All in all the b-tech ACs are very logical, and why the ranges and damages are as they are I wont cover since ruger pretty well nailed it down.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
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| Posted: 14-Apr-2004 22:51 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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I have seen Class 20 Autocannon as having caibers of 150mm-200mm in cannon publications
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2004 07:18 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Thats why it says 120mm+ for heavy ACs heh
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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2004 11:41 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Quote:
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On 2004-04-14 13:43, ralgith wrote:
Here's the size quotes from the BMR on ACs:
...Now a 3 round burst ac/2 is going to need a larger shell size than a 5 round burst ac/2. That same token can be said for any AC size. Now on to the "burst" argument. The AC/s fire in the same kinda mode as a modern sub machine gun that fires in 3 round bursts... |
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I have to say that this concept has always made my brain hurt. If ACs really do fire in bursts (which is the way I understand them), then why do they do damage to a single location?
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2004 12:01 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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Fairly simple, take the example of a sub machine gun firing 3 round bursts. Now aim at a target and pull the trigger, the shots will be clustered tightly if you have a good hold on the gun to keep the recoil from jumping it too much, but still even if you don't have a great hold the recoil only moves the shots up and over a little. Aiming at the center of mass on a human, the chest, most of the time all 3 shots will hit the chest. Sometimes a single shot will track up into the neck or the shoulders. Now a ful auto weapon on the other hand...it scatters shots all over the place  Now all of this is with the human arm, not a stabilized giant robot arm with more strenght than any of us could imagine. Thats gonna be some rock solid aiming with tightly clustered shots.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 15-Apr-2004 12:01 Post subject: RE: Tank Guns |
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I always thought it made sense with AC's firing single rounds, I mean, armour can only be so effective against shells, It doesn't matter if your MBT mounts classified Chobham armour, Reactive or whatever, they can still only take one or two shots max, as armour advances so will the weapons to penetrate them. Only stands to reason will be same in 3025+
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