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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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 Posted: 28-Aug-2003 00:07 Post subject: Heres a question for everyone. |
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I know there is a large majority that dosent like Stackpool. I have just finished re-reading the Warrior series (Warrior En Garde, Riposte, and Coupe) and the Blood of Kerensky series I have always thought were some of the best books the genera has to offer. I have alwalys like all of the authors that have written some more than others, my least favorite is Loren Coleman.
Now after reading the essays he wrote after he left and the one after that I DID lose some respect for the guy. I thought they were cold callus and very egotistical. But I still enjoy his books (well most of them at least his star wars stuff and the batttletech stuff I enjoy his independant works lack inspiration.) But I am really curious what people think. I am just curious why people dislike him so much? (I know people dislike the clans but I think the clans thing was a company decision not just his so if you dont like the clans dont use that as a reason for disliking him.)
Im not trying to cause any waves or anything I am just curious why he is so disliked. I think he did a lot of good for the universe and I have just never heared a real reason that I can find for disliking him.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 07:10 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Like you said, Lack of Inspiration and Very Egotistical. He sometimes writes like it's a job not a passion.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2039
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 07:32 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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On 2003-08-28 07:10, Sir Henry wrote:
Like you said, Lack of Inspiration and Very Egotistical. He sometimes writes like it's a job not a passion.
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Not just that, but also the fact that he's apparently lost the ability to write a true gray universe (if he ever really had it to begin with)...his characters have become clearcut black and white cutouts (moreso than they were)...
The only book of his that I truly liked was Talion Revenant...the rest were either ok or poor...
If I want BTech, I'll take Pardoe, Bills, Charette, Coleman, Milan or even Nystul...if I want fantasy, I'll take Salvatore, Cunningham or Kidd...if I want any other genre of sci-fi, I'll take Asimov, Clarke, Dick, Zahn, Drake, etc.
Ruger
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8072
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 08:05 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Just as an FYI, you can now go to the "Novels" and review each of the novels listed.
Head on over and tell us what you think! 
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www.210sportsblog.com
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 10:10 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Check out Vernor Vinge while you're at it. A Fire upon the Deep was awesome, and the same goes for A Deepness in the Sky.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 10:54 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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I like Stackpole's earlier works, but as others have stated his ability to write a gray universe seems to have disappeared.
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"It is pleasant, when the winds are high and the seas are rough to watch the stuggles of another from the shore."
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 16:35 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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INteresting Its been a while since I read his battletech work (all of it that is, I just started rereading the books again) so my opinion may change, but I still feel that the Warrior series and the Blood of Kerensky series are some of the best books written in the universe.
Now I fint truly baised writing by Coleman and generally read his only because they are part of the universe, other than that I find his stuff boring and lacking imagination and just plain uninspiring. I know my friends that I do game with think the same thing.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 17:48 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Warrior series was very good, but it was the set up why so many people liked the Fed Suns. Also he had a problem, all books must rewrite the universe and change things drastically. In the Kerensky series the black and white works well, but can not hold over long time. So all Stackpole changed everything and determined who the good guys were. That is the main rub, especially when the ego thing kicked in. He was Battletech, well he is part of the reason FASA got into that hole, they did not tell him to heel at all.
AWAD- Still hates the Fed Suns the most out of all IS houses
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2039
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2003 20:44 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Quote:
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On 2003-08-28 16:35, Stinger wrote:
INteresting Its been a while since I read his battletech work (all of it that is, I just started rereading the books again) so my opinion may change, but I still feel that the Warrior series and the Blood of Kerensky series are some of the best books written in the universe.
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The Warrior series, even as good as it sort of was, already pointed out how Stackpole did not write a grey universe, but a black and white one...very little character or reason for not hating was given to House Liao, while House Davion had glory upon glory heaped upon it...this was made worse in the Blood of Kerensky series, where the Clans were mostly portrayed in a poor light, with the exception of Clan Wolf...
Stackpole simply has little or no concept of a grey universe...and his works are mostly jokes...uninspiring and uninteresting...which is why I stopped purchasing them long ago...
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Now I fint truly baised writing by Coleman and generally read his only because they are part of the universe, other than that I find his stuff boring and lacking imagination and just plain uninspiring. I know my friends that I do game with think the same thing.
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Just curious...biased how? Coleman has given character to House Liao...he has shown the grey of the universe...his characters are far better developed than what you can find in a typical Stackpole novel with its cardboard cutouts (one exception being Baron Fel...but he started as a comic book character in the X-Wing comic series)...what you accuse Coleman of, I find FAR more in Stackpole...
Ruger
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2003 00:02 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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I liked the first few of Stackpole's books I read, but after a while I lost taste for his writing. My dislike for Stackpole doesn't have to do with his style of writing, though, but his hand in the direction of the universe. I don't like the way it has shaped up, especially with the FedCom civil war, operation Bulldog, and especially the lame jihad. The blame for this partially falls on Stackpole.
To top it off his letters to the fans were in poor taste. I once considered buying his works in other storylines, but that notion has long been dismissed.
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Gangrene
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2003 19:04 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Stackpole wasn't all bad.
He did a decent job with his battle scenes, and his initial direction of the universe. I wonder how much of the black and white was driven by editors and not by him. I have read one other fantasy novel by him and it wasn't half bad (I'll have to find the title).
I don't like where the Battletech Universe went due to his novels, nor do I like his hard characterizations of the different Houses. I do admit that he managed to keep me looking for the next novel in his series trying to figure out what happened to his characters though.
Pin
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"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2003 20:51 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Back when Stackpole wrote the Warrior and Kerensky trilogies, I think he did have a hand in the direction of the universe. But after that I think he had little influence, as I beleive he mentioned in his essays, and was just writing the plots he was hired to write. You've got to remember he was never a member of the FASA staff, just a hired contractor. And while he was a great infuence there early on, when he left Btech for a while to work on other books I think that influence on the story line mostly faded.
To me the major reason there is so much badmouthing of Stackpole is not because of his writing but because of his essays. The books he did for Btech that could have been lots better were the one where we now know he had little to do with the plot of the book, he was handed that and paid to fill in the text. And every time I see someone saying the guy can't write, I wonder why publishers were willing to risk their money publishing the novels of a guy who can't write what is it 50 or so times now? As I've said before, I try not to criticise such achievement when I haven't been published even once.
In his essays, Stackpole kissed no ass and made no apology for his opinions, he told the truth as he saw it concerning the game industry and the book industry and his own career as an author. And a whole lot of players got really hacked off that Stackpole would dare speak aloud the simple truth that most of the changes made in their game were not for the sake of the game but for the sake of continuing or increased sales of Battletech products. For money. For profit.
And god forbid that he should mention that authors liked to make a decent income just like the rest of us and what they write will natually reflect this desire. Far worse, during a lean time when he was in danger of quitting writing to get a regular job that paid better, he called on his readers to support their author if they ever wanted to read more of his works.
At the heart of his essays (In My Opinion) is the true statement that all of Battletech and all of his books were formed and guided by one overriding influence. Capitalism. The making of money. An amazing number of people took great offense at the thought that profits might be the number one influence of the creation and shaping of a fictional universe.
It was a truth the majoity of the Battletech community simply did not want to hear. I guess it is just one more evidence of the long-term effects of the socialism being taught in our public schools ever since the 60s.
Does anyone recall when William Shatner went to a sci-fi convention and while making a brief speech he tried to make a joke? He looked out at all these people wearing Star Trek uniforms and said "Its just a TV show, people. Get a life." To this day, I'd say at least half the old-time Trekkies hate Shatner's guts for saying that little bit of truth, even in jest.
Remember when Leonard Nimoy wrote his book "I am not Spock?" Just as many hated him over that too. It's the same thing. When the creators of our fantasys do or say something that breeches our cherished illusions, a lot of us will automatically hate them for it.
Over time, this ill feeling needs to generate some detailed reasons to justify itself. Things like "Shatner can't act" or "Stackpole can't write" which become widely accepted in spite of massive evidence to the contrary. As a rule, people who can't act do not get paid millions to appear in movies and TV shows, and people who can't write don't get published.
Not liking their particular style is something else altogether, but this can never stand as proof of lack of abilty.
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"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Aug-2003 01:37 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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On 2003-08-30 20:51, Gunslinger Patch wrote:
Far worse, during a lean time when he was in danger of quitting writing to get a regular job that paid better, he called on his readers to support their author if they ever wanted to read more of his works. |
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You may not see that as anything wrong, but I think it was pretty tacky. If Stackpole had a real job and wrote on the side I would have more respect for him.
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At the heart of his essays (In My Opinion) is the true statement that all of Battletech and all of his books were formed and guided by one overriding influence. Capitalism. The making of money. An amazing number of people took great offense at the thought that profits might be the number one influence of the creation and shaping of a fictional universe. |
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I don't find that idea offensive, and in some ways I wish the current group running the game reflected this more.
I think you are right, though, in that a lot of people get caught up in the fiction and lose sight of the fact that fundamentaly Battletech is a product. A lot of fans would rather see the game die "pure" than evolve into a more mainstream product.
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| As a rule, people who can't act do not get paid millions to appear in movies and TV shows, and people who can't write don't get published. |
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Maybe Stackpole is like the Pauly Shore of Battletech authors. Sorry, you have a good point but I couldn't resist.
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Gangrene
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Aug-2003 22:05 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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The Pauley shore of actors? Im sorry but I would rather watch a Pauley shore marathon than watch Jim Carrey. Have to agree though I will admit that the essay did leave a bad taste in my mouth so to speak. I have long thought that all the negativity surrounding him was due to that. There was some ego there that I think he alwo could have shelved and in the case of the essays SHOULD have shelved. All in all as I have started rereading the universe I just cant put his stuff down. And his books gave me a Fanatical hatred of Victors sister Kathren. I have never had a book make me scream out "THAT {BLANKING BLANKITY BLANK BLANK}" before, as I puickely turned the page to find out what else was happening.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2003 23:58 Post subject: RE: Heres a question for everyone. |
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Heh, I loath and despise Pauly Shore, you couldn't pay me to watch him in a movie. But you'll never see me claim that he isn't an actor or a comedian. Shore has the bank account to prove me wrong.
As for Stackpole, he already has a "real job" he writes full time. He don't finish the book, his kids don't get fed and the house note don't get paid. In his essays he said what he makes in year, it is less than I make in my machine-cog postal job, the one where I am not required to think or even to breath very often. He has written more novels than I have lived years, and I make a better paycheck than he does.
I've done some writing myself, it is not simple, nor is it easy, nor does it consume merely a few hours a day. What he has published should have properly gotten him a six figure income to reflect his efforts. But since he can't afford that trip on the QEII and he'll probably never get to buy a mercedes I figure the least I can do is offer the man my respect for his work.
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2003-09-05 00:06 ]
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"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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