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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 30-Oct-2004 22:08 Post subject: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Well in my last offical BT game in Iraq, yes that's right we are soon to be out of here, one of the guys who is really getting into the game, noted that there is no AC15.
I tried explaining that the range and weight of the AC10 kind of made an AC15 pointless but he countered with the LRM15 point and so it got me to thinking...
Should there have been an AC15 way back when the game started or was it not needed thus as the rules relfect?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 00:31 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Yes.
Ac 15
Heat:5
Damage:15
Short Range: 1-4
Med Range: 5-8
Long Range: 9-12
Weight: 13 tons
Ammo: 7
Crits: 9
Or better yet change the ac 2 to and ac 5, 5 to a 10, 10 to 15 and adjust weight and damage accordingly.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 01:33 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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I personally don't see the need for an AC/15, but the AC/2 and AC/5 both need fixing; AC/4 and AC/7 are where I'd fix them. I've considered making the AC/10 into an AC/11 in this context though; fifteen is a bit too much. Even 12 would make the weapon a head clipper.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 31-Oct-2004 12:27 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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There was apparently going to be an AC15 but it would have been obselete and the weapons too generalised. So it was revamped and introduced as the Gauss rifle.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 06:16 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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AC/15 is a gauss rifle.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 07:31 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Quote:
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On 2004-11-01 06:16, Sir Henry wrote:
AC/15 is a gauss rifle.
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With none of the drawbacks.........
Pin
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 09:45 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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There was no reason to include an AC15 because the range and size difference between the 20 and the 10 would have made it a worthless middleground. However, the game system needed a weapon which did damage as a compromise between 10 and 20 (LRM15 makes 9 on average, and the LRM20 makes 12) But they were after a weapon which would pose a significant threat over long range and add some variability to the game systems which an AC15 would not provide.
I read an FAQ/interview with one of the developers of the game system. See if i can't dig up the site and give you a link.
He also mentioned the interesting point about the clan LRM's which were supposed to have a min range but a misprint gave them none.
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Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 10:39 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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The Gauss rifle was the first headhunter weapon added to the game with essentially no drawbacks other than simply size.
15 points of damage to a single location, and the range of an LRM, with a minimal minimum range.
The AC20 at least had some significant drawbacks and using it well required a bit of skill.
I have no idea who play tested the Gauss for them, but they should be shot.
It became very apparent when almost anyone with an AC20 in a mech soon found it much more powerful to replace it with a Gauss. If the Gauss had come in as a clan weapon, sort of a super AC20, then maybe, but as it was introduced it really screwed things up in terms of balance, playability, and skill.
Pin
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 11:07 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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It's also one of the only things that equals the playing field for Inner Sphere units vs. Clanners. That's probably why it's as powerful as it is.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 11:10 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Quote:
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On 2004-11-01 10:39, Pinhead wrote:
The Gauss rifle was the first headhunter weapon added to the game with essentially no drawbacks other than simply size.
15 points of damage to a single location, and the range of an LRM, with a minimal minimum range.
The AC20 at least had some significant drawbacks and using it well required a bit of skill.
I have no idea who play tested the Gauss for them, but they should be shot.
It became very apparent when almost anyone with an AC20 in a mech soon found it much more powerful to replace it with a Gauss. If the Gauss had come in as a clan weapon, sort of a super AC20, then maybe, but as it was introduced it really screwed things up in terms of balance, playability, and skill.
Pin
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I completely agree. The Gauss rifle (regular gauss) completely shut down the entire AC line as far as I'm concerned. 15, 20, 500 damage ... doesn't matter as long as it does 12 or more ... and when you're talking that much damage the gauss rifle is unsurpassed. You can take someone's head off at over twice the distance of an AC20 ... that's just gross and makes for extremely random play. Again the concept of a gauss rifle is neat and if they had made it more of like a long range AC10 ... maybe just heavier than an AC10 but did 10 damage with superior range ... that would have been acceptable. There was no need for 15 damage though. No matter how you try and rate it ... no weapon in the game is better than a gauss rifle ... mathematically speaking ... and it is FAR superior to anything else. Not even in the same league as most weapons. That's broken ... that's unbalanced ... and that's not fun.
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 12:30 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Quote:
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On 2004-11-01 11:07, mud wrote:
It's also one of the only things that equals the playing field for Inner Sphere units vs. Clanners. That's probably why it's as powerful as it is.
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We beat you folks without using a single Gauss rifle. They remove the tactical aspect of the game, and are not even close to being balanced as a weapon.
Pin
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 01-Nov-2004 15:31 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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So why don't people like the heavy gauss? Its te most powerful weapon in the game (par UAC20 and MRM40 &30 which all have quirks to be effective).
The Heavy gauss gives the most damage to a single part of the mech, but it has so many quirks and drawbacks that it is a gamble to mount it.
My Minotaur mech in the custom TRO has recieved bad ratings just because people see the Hvy guass. The fact is it works extremely well on that mech because its paired with a hatchet.
Just like the light gauss rifle, it does slighly less damage than the AC10, but the payoff is excelled range and the higher ammo.
The Clan Large pulse laser is another uber weapon. Personally i like what Mektek did by adding the Light PPC. Same range but lighter, less heat and consequencially less damage. Much more of an option for light mechs.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 02-Nov-2004 10:11 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Quote:
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On 2004-11-01 15:31, Wanallo wrote:
So why don't people like the heavy gauss? Its te most powerful weapon in the game (par UAC20 and MRM40 &30 which all have quirks to be effective).
The Heavy gauss gives the most damage to a single part of the mech, but it has so many quirks and drawbacks that it is a gamble to mount it.
My Minotaur mech in the custom TRO has recieved bad ratings just because people see the Hvy guass. The fact is it works extremely well on that mech because its paired with a hatchet.
Just like the light gauss rifle, it does slighly less damage than the AC10, but the payoff is excelled range and the higher ammo.
The Clan Large pulse laser is another uber weapon. Personally i like what Mektek did by adding the Light PPC. Same range but lighter, less heat and consequencially less damage. Much more of an option for light mechs.
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Ok well first off I don't think anyone will argue that a clan large pulse laser sucks ... you might find people arguing that it's too good ... but that's about the only complaints anyone has about that.
The light gauss rifle is (imho) too heavy for what it does. The range is nice and all but its just not quite worth it, imho. 12 tons and 5 crits for 8 damage out to range 25 ... for 1 heat. Not bad at all ... but when you can have 15 damage out to 22 range for the same heat but 3 more tons and 2 more crits? Basically the light gauss would be a better and more used weapon if the regular gauss didn't exist. I personally would still take an LRM15 or 20 w/ artemis IV over a light gauss ... but that's just me. Less range, more damage, less tonnage, more heat.
As for the heavy gauss it's just not that good. People will quickly identify a heavy gauss mech and will simply avoid letting it get into it's devastation range. Its not hard to out-maneuver a mech that can't run and shoot. The only weapon you can make a comparison with is the AC20 ... and lets just use the LBX since it's plain better  .
LBX20
14 tons
11 crits
6 heat
5 shots/ton (ammo explodes for instant death)
Can switch firing modes
4/8/12 range.
20 damage
HVY Gauss
18 tons
11 crits
2 heat
4 shots/ton
Can make mech fall down and gun can explode
6/13/20 range
25/20/10 damage
That's not an easy call, but the Gauss will end up weighing at least an extra ton or two more once ammo is figured in so you end up with a 5 ton effective weight difference ... with the Gauss doing superior damage in all ranges, with better to-hits, but with a mech that can't move right and making less heat. Tough call really. I'd probably go with the heavy gauss over the LBX 20 if I could ... but those 5 tons could make up for a lot of the damage difference ... 5 tons is a Large Laser or LRM10 or Streak 6 w/ ammo if you want to look at it subjectively.
I guess again what ultimately hurts the Hvy gauss ... just like the Light gauss ... is the basic Gauss rifle. It's just better. Less heat, less weight, less crits, more ammo, superior range, better damage at 14+ range, no drawbacks.
[ This Message was edited by: Feral on 2004-11-02 10:14 ]
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PanzerMaster
Capellan Confederation
Si-ben-bing
Joined: 21-Oct-2004 00:00
Posts: 79
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| Posted: 03-Nov-2004 05:23 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Hmmm.I have thought of this many times to.But i believe it is un-needed.It would be beter to use 20s or 10s.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Nov-2004 06:14 Post subject: RE: Why no AC15?? Yes the old question comes up again |
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Pin, they can be made to be balanced. If Guass rifles are all you have then they are ballanced.
Picture: 24 Hollander, all in a row. Shoulder to shoulder, walking in beat with the Bagpipes and Drums. All painted Red.... 
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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