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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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 Posted: 13-May-2002 23:46 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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That's right, you heard me. I said Wizkids might be doing some things right.
For a while now I have been contemplating a Battletech-ish game that is on a larger scale but still allows for unit level tactics. Basically something between regular Btech and Battleforce. Despite flaws in the system, clicky-tech allows for such engagments due to game simplifications. I think that is a good thing. For as much as I like micro-managing my 2 to 4 mech force in regular games, sometimes I would like to run a Monte Diablo or battalion size event without it taking 7+ hours.
There is a second aspect that Wizkids is doing right, IMO. Even though I don't like the clicky base thing, I do like how the units abilities are changed by even a minor hit. The change may not be great, but there is a good sense of satisfaction in seeing the other guys abilities go down after a hit. Battletech has been sorely lacking in this area (although it only started bothering me in the last couple of years). I can walk my Awesome up to a Zeus and go postal, and chances are that it will be 3 or 4 turns before I actually hurt the Zeus'es fighting potential (with the exception of the rare head hit). Although weapons like the Heavy Gauss help ease this, still Battletech can use some help.
Don't get me wrong; I am not some big clicky-tech fan all of a sudden. But there are lessons to be learned here.
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[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-05-13 23:49 ]
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Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
Joined: 17-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 495
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 02:30 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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The problem that battleTech has when playing anything larger than a company isn't a rules problem or design flaw, but rather a scale problem. It simply is not designed to be played that way. It is a tactical game, not an operational game and it takes so long because it has to be micromanaged.
Patton said the essence of command is to know where your people are two eschelons below you, but only order one eschelon below you. (Meaning if you are a Division Commander, order your Brigade Commanders, but know where your Battalions are. Conversely if you are a Company Commander, you order your Platoon Leaders and try to know where your squads are.) Likewise you should know the intent of your commander two eschelons above you but get orders form one eschelon above you.
Whenever BattleTech (or any wargame for that matter) tries to micromanage it defeats that system. As a Battalion commander I need to know what shape my Lances are in, not how many shots of SRM ammo my Wasp has left.
And scale is a problem as well. Say a battalion versus battalion game lasts 30 turns and one is wiped out and the other suffers 50% casulties. That may seem like a long time, but in game time it is only 5 minutes. Units do not take casualties that rapidly nor do battles develop at that pace.
An even larger problem is that when playing battalion sized battles with tactical rules, the game never goes beyond tactical. When was the last time you had a battalion on battalion battle where you probed a position, attacked it, were repelled, regrouped and hit that target again from a different direction? In all likelyhood you simply charge your mechs in and hope for the best and that is not how operational level games should be played.
It isn't the system's fault. It was never designed to handle anything beyond company level. I really think of all the games used (Battleforce 1 & 2 and Clickytech) BF1 got it right. Even Battleforce 2 had some micromanaging involved. As a regimental commander I didn't need to know what mechs were in what lance, I just needed to know what shape my companies were in.
Will Clickytech be quicker at a large scale Battle? without a doubt. It may even be closer to the feel of an operational game, but really neither BAttleTech or Clickytech are designed to play at that level.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 02:43 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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On 2002-05-14 02:30, Cadet wrote:
The problem that battleTech has when playing anything larger than a company isn't a rules problem or design flaw, but rather a scale problem. It simply is not designed to be played that way. It is a tactical game, not an operational game and it takes so long because it has to be micromanaged.
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I agree. I just think the idea of a larger scale Btech game is kind of cool. Plus I played Battleforce and did not like it very much. It was too far removed from the regular game.
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Will Clickytech be quicker at a large scale Battle? without a doubt. It may even be closer to the feel of an operational game, but really neither BAttleTech or Clickytech are designed to play at that level.
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I don't think clickytech will be operation, as you put it, but it will allow for more units. It might allow for board versions of games like TA or Starcraft, where you have control of single units but its simple enough that you can use them en masse.
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MEX
Clan Blood Spirit
Star Colonel
Joined: 21-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 440
Location: Austria
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 08:49 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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Quote:
| On 2002-05-14 02:30, Cadet wrote:
The problem that battleTech has when playing anything larger than a company isn't a rules problem or design flaw, but rather a scale problem. It simply is not designed to be played that way. It is a tactical game, not an operational game and it takes so long because it has to be micromanaged |
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A company is still too big for playing it with CBT rules !
From my experience i can tell you that, as soon as there are more than 2 Lances on the map, the game takes too long and a lot of the players get bored while they wait until it is their turn to fire/move their mech.
MfG, MEX
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 11:08 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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You know...
I used to believe that the only good battletech game had to be kept to about lance on lance. About 5 (?) years ago Casey and I got irritated with large scale Battletech events at Total Con and decided to try our hand at a large scale event that would finish in the 4 hour time slot.
What we found was we could support up to about 24 players, as long as we used some "speed-up" helpers, and designed our scenarios such that deaths occured in a reasonable manner.
Our first large scale scenario pitted 2 Stars of Clan mechs defending an ammo depot, versus an Assault company of Comstar mechs. The clan mechs were 1 star of second line mechs, and 1 star of front line mechs that were only there to be refitted. The basics of that scenario were that if Comstar did not charge in, they would get picked to death.. If the Clans didn't stand and fight, they lost their Depot. We finished in just under four hours, when a Clan mech decided to take cover instead of killing the Comstar mech that ran by him, and blew up the depot.
Our second scenario was on a moon with .1 G, Clans attacking Kurita who were defending a freighter which had crashed.
Third scenario was a City Battle with combined forces.. Tanks are very crunchy and make good bait..
Fourth scenario was the underwater battle, where the clan stars dropped to kill the kurita headquarters only to find that after they had bid, the HQ was underwater.
In each of them, we managed to get a group of 24ish folks through the entire scenario before the 4 hour limit, mostly due to the way we ran initiative, and movement marking.
Pin
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 11:25 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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On 2002-05-14 11:08, Pinhead wrote:
You know...
What we found was we could support up to about 24 players, as long as we used some "speed-up" helpers, and designed our scenarios such that deaths occured in a reasonable manner.
...
The basics of that scenario were that if Comstar did not charge in, they would get picked to death. If the Clans didn't stand and fight, they lost their Depot.
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I use a lot of tricks like this to speed up my scenarios. In the last scenario I ran some Vic supporters were making a raid on a pro-Kat base in an attempt to capture a Heavy Gauss prototype. I started the mechs behind hills but within 12 hexes of each other. I also gave the defender's base some powerful defense installations that I said would activate at the end of turn 12 unless the attackers had taken control of the base by that time. It ran pretty well.
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[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-05-14 11:26 ]
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 12:19 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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Quote:
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On 2002-05-14 11:08, Pinhead wrote:
What we found was we could support up to about 24 players, as long as we used some "speed-up" helpers, and designed our scenarios such that deaths occured in a reasonable manner.
Pin
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IS there such a thing a reasonable manner of Death?????
Sir HEnry
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
Joined: 17-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 495
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 12:41 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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We always used an egg timer. You had 30 seconds to move that mech or he stands still. Modern warefare is supposed to be fast. And it forces players to think ahead.
[ This Message was edited by: Cadet on 2002-05-14 12:44 ]
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 13:09 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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That also sounds like a decent idea, especially for all those painfully slow players who try to find every possible position on the board.
Unfortunately, it still allows for players to be chickens and not engage in battle. Some at my old gaming group had this bad habit of staying as far away from the enemy as possible and trying wimpy crap like indirect LRM fire with an LRM10. The games really dragged.
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[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-05-14 13:09 ]
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 15:01 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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Thats what air support is for  we have a gentlemens rule in our games that moves won't take more then 30 seconds, and if they do then the we all get to engage in a serious beating on the offender!
Raven!
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Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
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| Posted: 14-May-2002 23:37 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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We used the timer for both movement and fire declaration phase. If you don't do it in that time, your forfit.
Obviously we made exceptions for new people.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
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| Posted: 15-May-2002 07:59 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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We couldn't use one, because some of our college Grads couldn't do the math in 30 seconds.....
Sir HEnry
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-May-2002 21:01 Post subject: Wizkids might be doing some things right |
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I think that when you play with a regular group there are a few tweaks you can make with the game to speed up large battles. As Pin noted: random initiative with cards.
Using dice to show move modifiers is a definate must in any game at any level.
At cons I do use the random initiative to help speed the game but I sometimes feel guilty. I sense that some players who have never played in this fashion feel they are at a disadvantage. I also feel that it does radically change the tactics of the game as presented in the rules, but I do feel that it must be done.
At Monte Diable, even with a one minute time limit for moves, such a huge battle with so many players really does not lend itself to a scenerio where destruction/retreat of one side is the ultimate victory condition. I think a tally of points after a set number of turns would perhaps be more suitable.
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