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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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 Posted: 16-Oct-2004 21:32 Post subject: ATMs |
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How effective are these on the field. They always seemed a bit heavy to me for what they're able to do.
The flexibility they offer is OK, but considering that the Clanners already have flexibility in spades as they field large forces of omnimechs, this is not so great of a selling point.
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Discord
Federated Suns
Sergeant-Major
Joined: 22-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 106
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Oct-2004 23:15 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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I personally love 'em. They're one of the few reasons I'll run a clammer in a pick up game. The Timber Wolf E is just plain nasty. I'll run a mix of ER and HE ammo to take advantage ot the fact that most of our games are either sniperfests or down and dirty close in brawls.
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Moonlapse Vertigo
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Captain
Joined: 02-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 207
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| Posted: 17-Oct-2004 18:34 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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| I haven't used ATMs too much, but the people I've seen who use them love to get in close and use the HE rounds, which have the potential to do very large amounts of damage. They basically ignore the other kinds of ammo.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 21-Oct-2004 14:13 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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ATMs are pretty awesome in my opinion. The best level 2 missile in the game I would go on to say. They do a lot more damage than people think, they always seem to forget that artemis, and those HE's are ridiculous. Can you say 36 damage?? The range on the long range ones is also pretty sick. The real question is which is better ... ATMs, LRM w/ artemis V, or Streak LRMs? Very tough call, but the ATM's are definitely the most flexible.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Oct-2004 20:45 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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Except for their weight, Streak LRMs are clearly superior in any situation. There's something to be said for missiles that never miss. Plus, they've got no min range.
I don't really like ATMs, so I've only used them a few times. The HE rounds are fine, but they have the same problem as standard SRMs: they're not Streak. I never use standard SRMs, and I usually prefer ER PPCs to LRMs. I don't like the feeling when only some of my weapons hit, so I avoid SRMs and ATMs whenever possible. For some reason LRMs aren't as annoying when they miss; no idea why.
One thing, mud. The flexibility of an ATM is on a completely different scale then the flexibility of an OmniMech. An ATM is good for the changing situation of a battle; as the enemy closes, you change ammo types. This is tactical flexibility, small scale stuff. On a larger, more strategic scale, Omnis give you the ability to land (from DropShips) on the plains with long or mixed range configs. If the enemy retreats to a city or forest or something, then you hold up a bit, switch to shorter range configurations, and go in after them.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 21-Oct-2004 22:29 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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You pay for that tactical flexibility in weight though, considering that you need at least two tons of ATM to exploit this flexibility.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Oct-2004 22:51 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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True. That's why I don't like ATMs. Streak SRMs are much lighter if you want to get close. And since Clan LRMs have no min range, you can always use them up close if you need to. Oc course, an ATM's tonnage includes an Artemis if I recall, so it's not too bad. Still, I suspect that ATMs would be much more useful if Clan LRMs had a minmum range.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 22-Oct-2004 11:51 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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On 2004-10-21 22:51, StarRaven wrote:
True. That's why I don't like ATMs. Streak SRMs are much lighter if you want to get close. And since Clan LRMs have no min range, you can always use them up close if you need to. Oc course, an ATM's tonnage includes an Artemis if I recall, so it's not too bad. Still, I suspect that ATMs would be much more useful if Clan LRMs had a minmum range.
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Well lets do a little bit of objective analysis here.
ATM12:
7 tons
5 Crits
8 heat
5 ammo/ton
Avg Damage: 10(4-12)/20(8-24)/30(12-36)
Range: 27/21/15
Bonus: Can switch ammo modes.
LRM20 w/ A-5
6.5 tons
6 Crits
6 Heat
6 ammo/ton
Avg. Damage: 16 (9-20)
Range: 21
Bonus: -1 to hit
Stk LRM20
10 tons
5 crits
6 heat
6 ammo/ton
Avg. Damage: 20 (20 all the time)
Range: 21
Bonus: No wasted ammo
Now looking at the above its fair to say all three are not too different when it comes to quality. The ATM's do the most damage by far and have the best range. This is mitigated by the fact that you get less ammo per ton and you may have to keep an extra ton of a certain type of ammo. That's not a big deal, how many LRM mech's have less than 20 shots anyhow?
The Artemis V tech is interesting. The -1 to hit is huge, never should be discounted ... but it can be messed with by ECMs. It's the lightest option, tonnage wise and is pretty heat efficient and that Artemis V really keeps the damage levels up. All in all its just good with the slight detraction being you will waste some ammo (though less than an ATM due to the -1 to hit) and that an ECM shuts you down.
The Streak LRM is the most extreme. By far the heaviest system, it makes up for this by requiring less ammo. Depending on your gunner you can usually get away with carrying up to 50% less ammo on a streak mech, since you simply don't waste anything. In an extended campaign where money totals are kept this is a huge boon, but the initial price of the Streak system is not insubstantial ... hard to say. That aside the streak does moderate damage but also gets screwed by an ECM.
So its hard to say which of them is best. I personally will take the ATM over the rest simply because tactical flexibility is most important to me ... hence every mech I design has jump jets. However it cannot be discounted that this system with full ammo bins will likely weigh on par with the streak LRM system, and it makes more heat as well. This cannot be discounted.
As far as most efficient ... I would be hard pressed to say anything beyond the Artemis V system. You will hit more with this system and it takes up the least space on your mech, even when considering that you can carry less ammo with a streak. Also on a missile roll of 8 or higher (43% of the time) you hit with all 20 missiles just like the streak anyhow. Of course the other 57% of the time you are dealing less than optimal damage (still an average of 16 isn't bad) ... but you do hit more to make up for it. Artemis V's are highly underrated.
The streak is my least favorite, since we are talking clan here you have integral case in all designs so the ability to carry less ammo is diminished as opposed on an IS design where you need to add in the tonnage of case to anything other than a streak mech. The ammo efficiency is very nice weight-wise but the weight of the system reduces this boon.
So my preference is:
#1 ATM (most damage, most range, ignores ECM)
#2. Artemis V (most efficient damage, best chances ot hit, ECM trivializes it)
#3. Streak LRM (too heavy for what it does, ECM trivializes it).
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Oct-2004 12:59 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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#1 ATM (most damage, most range, ignores ECM)
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I remember that an ATM's tonnage includes an integral Artemis IV; it's part of the weapon. Doesn't ECM remove the Artemis bonus from an ATM? That'll take some of the bite from your HE rounds.
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#2. Artemis V (most efficient damage, best chances ot hit, ECM trivializes it)
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Maybe. But you're working numbers. It's not any fun to reduce the game to numbers and nothing more. Yes, the numbers are an integral part of the game (they are the game, really), but I wasn't saying Streak LRMs are best because they do more damage per ton. I just said that I liked them best.
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#3. Streak LRM (too heavy for what it does, ECM trivializes it).
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Like Artemis V, a Streak system can only be disabled by Angel ECM. The max range of an Angel is 6. That's a lot of distance in which your Streaks still work. The same is true of Artemis V. Like I said, I don't like it when only some of my missiles hit. I live with it for IS games, but if I can get Streak LRMs, I'll take them without hesitating.
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on an IS design where you need to add in the tonnage of case to anything other than a streak mech.
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What do Streaks have to do with CASE? The only considerations for CASE are the presence of ammunition and the engine type. If you have any amount of ammo (even a single ton for your Streak 6), and the 'Mech has a standard or light engine, then you use CASE. There's no point with an XL engine, since the engine goes with the side torso. (Unless you want to salvage the carcass, like with the Templar.)
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Well lets do a little bit of objective analysis here.
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Why? I prefer the answers I get from my subjective analysis. That's why I use it.
[ This Message was edited by: StarRaven on 2004-10-22 13:03 ]
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5724
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Oct-2004 13:20 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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Well lets do a little bit of objective analysis here.
ATM12:
7 tons
5 Crits
8 heat
5 ammo/ton
Avg Damage: 10(4-12)/20(8-24)/30(12-36)
Range: 27/21/15
Bonus: Can switch ammo modes.
So my preference is:
#1 ATM (most damage, most range, ignores ECM)
#2. Artemis V (most efficient damage, best chances ot hit, ECM trivializes it)
#3. Streak LRM (too heavy for what it does, ECM trivializes it).
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Well all this data is pretty much useless for the majority of players who play strict lvl 1 or lvl 2. I love lvl 3 equipment. i am tech man, so i love new toys. however, i know that half this stuff is easily abused or horribly unbalancing, so i keep it out of my games.
now my opinion should matter little to yours, yet i must point out that for non-lvl 3 players the ATM is the best Clan missile launcher in existance. yes it is heavier then an LRM 20 w ART IV, yet its bennifits easily account for these deficencies. As somebody stated, mechs mounting LRMs typically [not always] mount several tons of ammunition for anything LRM 10 and above. IMHO, the only useless ATMs are the ATM 3s. To much ammo for to little impact.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 22-Oct-2004 13:31 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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On 2004-10-22 13:20, Vagabond wrote:
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Well lets do a little bit of objective analysis here.
ATM12:
7 tons
5 Crits
8 heat
5 ammo/ton
Avg Damage: 10(4-12)/20(8-24)/30(12-36)
Range: 27/21/15
Bonus: Can switch ammo modes.
So my preference is:
#1 ATM (most damage, most range, ignores ECM)
#2. Artemis V (most efficient damage, best chances ot hit, ECM trivializes it)
#3. Streak LRM (too heavy for what it does, ECM trivializes it).
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Well all this data is pretty much useless for the majority of players who play strict lvl 1 or lvl 2. I love lvl 3 equipment. i am tech man, so i love new toys. however, i know that half this stuff is easily abused or horribly unbalancing, so i keep it out of my games.
now my opinion should matter little to yours, yet i must point out that for non-lvl 3 players the ATM is the best Clan missile launcher in existance. yes it is heavier then an LRM 20 w ART IV, yet its bennifits easily account for these deficencies. As somebody stated, mechs mounting LRMs typically [not always] mount several tons of ammunition for anything LRM 10 and above. IMHO, the only useless ATMs are the ATM 3s. To much ammo for to little impact.
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Yeah I know, I said that in my first post ... for level 1/2 players the ATM is as good as it gets ... and to be fair I consider it very good contender for the #1 spot even with the level 3 brokeness. It's hard to deny that in level 1/2 there is simply no better missile system around ... I mean true LRM20 w/ A4 isn't bad at all ... but the ATM 12 owns that system cold.
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 22-Oct-2004 13:44 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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[quote]
On 2004-10-22 12:59, StarRaven wrote:
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Why? I prefer the answers I get from my subjective analysis. That's why I use it.
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Hey man you are entitled to your subjective analysis ... but people cannot debate subjective things so if you want anything more than just a bunch of opinions you need to at least attempt to objectify things to some extent. People need to speak a common language if there is to be any progress in a debate ... so I was simply trying to reduce things to the most easily quantifyable objective medium ... numbers. So I'm going to try and keep this objective as I can.
Anyhow good call on the ATM's with the integral A-4 ... your right it is just as affected by the ECM as any of the other systems. I keep forgetting this.
Also good point on how the streaks are only affected by the angel, not the guardian ... its been a while since I've looked at either. This is a plus for the streaks.
As to case and streaks ... well when using level 3 rules I always use fractional accounting and therefore use less than full tons of ammo. My IS mechs with streak SRMs usually carry no more than 6-8 shots (well the number varies depending on my gunner) ... so regardless of engine I never waste time on case. 6-8 shots in a streak will last an entire combat with an average pilot where you fire every round and by the time you are taking internal damage you will usually be pretty low on ammo anyhow. As far as I'm concerned a well designed streak mech (using fractional account for ammo tonnage) has little need of case until you have a dispropotionately good gunner (in which case you begin to need more ammo and case looks better and better).
As for having all of your missiles hit, I understand what you mean but the way I look at it ... if missile rack A hits with all of its missiles for 20 damage, and if missile rack B hits with only some of its missiles for 25 damage ... missile rack B is just better than A regardless of how many missiles missed. But hey, that's just the way I look at it. 
Like I said, all of these missile systems are incredibly awesome and as far as I'm concerned you can't go wrong with any of them ... and if I had to put numbers next to them they would all be rated within .05 points of out 10 of each other ... meaning I'd really be splitting hairs to call any of them truly superior to the other.
As I said I like ATM's because tactical adaptation is my #1 priority on the battlefield and the only other weapon in battletech that can even compare as far as adaptation is concerned is a Rotary Auto Cannon. If I wanted the purely numerically superior weapon it'd probably be the Artemis 5, and if I wanted the most ammo and $$$ efficient in the long run it'd be the Streak LRM (assuming you have a bad gunner. With a good gunner the streak will use just as much ammo as the other racks ... because they will all always hit).
Regardless I do like Streak LRMs very much, so don't get me wrong I'm not trying to bash them. It's my opinion that the other two are slightly better for the situations that I tend to get in for my playstyle ... that's all.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 24-Oct-2004 18:58 Post subject: RE: ATMs |
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Actually, I rather like standard Clan SRM launchers; you can't beat an SRM-6 for 1.5 tons. The Vulture makes good use of this.
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