| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
|
 Posted: 23-Mar-2005 23:30 Post subject: a point on pirate points? |
  |
|
I've been rereading the DRT novel at work on my lunch break and something occured to me.
Ok, the Combine can only get ships into Wolcott via pirate points because the Smoke Jaguars have the zenith and nadir jump points. The pirate points constantly change so the Combine ships have to be carefully scheduled and the pirate point carefully predicted and calculated.
But the Smoke Jags have little chance of catching a jumpship cause they don't know where the pirate point will be next? The have their patrols out sparsly covering the whole system in the hope of getting lucky?
What, did the Clans invade the Inner Sphere and forget to bring a calucaltor with them?
So what prevents the Smoke Jags from doing their own math, learning where and when the next pirate point will be, and parking a destroyer on it?
From the novel and what I recall from the sourcebooks, the pirate point changes position over time. But calcualtion can determine that on day x, the point will be located at position x.
Yet to my mind, in the literature, people coming in from a pirate point are never spotted on arrival, very rarely are they interpeted short of landing. So what keeps the other side from doing their math and knowing where the pirate point is on any given day?
For any important system, such as say the one the Grey Death died holding on to, calculating the pirate point just about every day would seem to me to be standard ops and so would sending patrols out to them.
So have I just forgetten some important detail about pirate points or is there a hole in this fabric?
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2005-03-23 23:31 ]
_________________
"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
|
|
| Back to top |
  
|
Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
|
| Posted: 23-Mar-2005 23:34 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
I think you've forgotten the "because I say so" factor. 
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Blackhand
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 05-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 334
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: 23-Mar-2005 23:46 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
Pirate points are "somewhat" random anomolies. You need to know enough of where they show up before you can start the number crunching process. Figure what, One jump a month, with a completely new location every time.
This is the way I read it. Its also the Smoke Jaguars having to rely on their Scientist Caste. Does anyone remember the Limpezia way they deal with anyone not of the warrior Caste?
Wolf I could see doing it, Jade Falcon's if they're is a Pryde in charge. Diamond Shark because they're bent that way. Nova Cat because they'd find out the pattern in a vision. But Smoked Jags... pifff.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Alexander
Heavy Horse Merc Brigade
Commanding Officer
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 828
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 00:36 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
I suggest you just sit back and enjoy the show... there is very little logic to most of the sci-fi points in the BTech universe. You know that just as well as I. This is only slightly more thought out than, say, Archie comics... But at least they have foxy Betty and Veronica! 
_________________
War is God's way of teaching geography.
*******
Commanding Officer, North West Armoured Cavalry
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 05:55 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
Can't say about forgotten calculators, but sensible people don't use pirate points. Clanners, set in their ways, might even consider it heresy to think about such aberrant tactics. Sure, surprise is good, but they usually just come in and challenge the defenders to a fight. They don't need pirate points.
And few planetary defense forces actually have the ships to be covering every possible approach to a system. The more ships guarding different pirate points, the less ships to actually deal with anyone trying to get to your planet. Remember these points aren't just around the inhabited planets. There might be dozens of temporary points around a gas giant with lots of moons.
_________________
A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 06:22 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-23 23:30,
But the Smoke Jags have little chance of catching a jumpship cause they don't know where the pirate point will be next? The have their patrols out sparsly covering the whole system in the hope of getting lucky?
Resources, how much fuel and how many pilots would you need, if you had enough Fighters/ ships to cover things in the first place? Figure out a the low gravity points in our system (basically lagrange points) that are changing location as fast as the various planets are orbiting.
What, did the Clans invade the Inner Sphere and forget to bring a calucaltor with them?
even clantech needs a full blown computer to figure this stuff out, just a more compact one.
So what prevents the Smoke Jags from doing their own math, learning where and when the next pirate point will be, and parking a destroyer on it?
there are 6 null gravity points that are constant around the earth, but they are too close in to use routinely for jump. There has to be something compensating for the suns gravity well-say Jupiter in the right location- to get things within jump tolerances. Most pirate points would probably be out beyond the asteroid belt, and the gas giants would definately cause those to change. calculate 6 or more for each planet-moon system and you have a huge number to watch.
From the novel and what I recall from the sourcebooks, the pirate point changes position over time. But calcualtion can determine that on day x, the point will be located at position x.
The hook is that there are probably more than a hundred point that are useable in a system at any specific time.
Yet to my mind, in the literature, people coming in from a pirate point are never spotted on arrival, very rarely are they interpeted short of landing. So what keeps the other side from doing their math and knowing where the pirate point is on any given day?
For any important system, such as say the one the Grey Death died holding on to, calculating the pirate point just about every day would seem to me to be standard ops and so would sending patrols out to them.
So have I just forgetten some important detail about pirate points or is there a hole in this fabric?
|
|
_________________
Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Talen
Capellan Confederation
Sang-shao
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1269
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 11:55 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
Coulda sworn that pirate points were some of the clans specialty at the begining of the invasion...
_________________
"Historians exercise great power and some of them know it. They recreate the past, changing it to fit their own interpretations. Thus, they change the future as well." - Leto II
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 14:47 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
I found this thread in the HeavyMetal forums particularly enlightening on the subject of Pirate Points, where they are in a system, and how they form.
[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2005-03-24 14:48 ]
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 20:29 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
I think part of the problem is where you are coming form also. That affects where you can jump in. If I remember Wolcott was a few jumps behind lines at some point. So the DC was jumping to various pirate systems to even get there. Plus the Clans want to destroy them in ground combat, not whacking transports.
AWAD- I have a simple answer, Star War Physics
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 24-Mar-2005 21:00 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
Even with his bad quoting, Rarich has hit this one exactly.
There are many many many pirate points in a system at any one time, they all move. Also as was said they are affected by where you are coming from. So thats why the jags don't even bother.
Oh, and when Wolcott was multiple jumps away, they jumped into uninhabited systems mostly for the jump before, not pirate points in other systems. Mostly. Sometimes they may have cause it is one of those desperation things heh.
Anyways, just my 2 pennies and understanding of the physics involved, convoluted as they are by the BT universe.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
|
| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 10:47 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
I always figured that there would be many pirate points in a system at any one time, so spreading your forces to cover all of them would leave you pretty spread thin and vulnerable.
Another related issue I've been meaning to bring up concerns detection of an incoming force. What sorts of sensors do they have to detect inbound dropships and fighters? Even if you can see an incoming force, interception in deep space might be quite difficult, especially if you don't know exactly where the invading force is going. Are they going to hit the planet, or are they going after your mining facilities on that moon? In light of these difficulties I'd think that trying to cover pirate points is probably a fool's errand. Even splitting your forces between the zenith and nadir points leaves you vulnerable. Keep a couple of scout ships posted at the major points that can bug out quickly if the enemy jumps in in force, and keep your fleet close to the objectives you actually want to protect.
_________________
"The enemy's gate is down."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 25-Mar-2005 11:00 Post subject: RE: a point on pirate points? |
|
|
That was another thing on Wolcott, the Jag WarShips were at the jumpship, but they had a lot of insystem stuff too that was actually around the planet.
As for detection, the only thing to detect is the EMP an incoming ship makes, and its very small and localized, thus can only detect if close.
_________________
Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
