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A cost-benefit analysis
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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 13:26    Post subject: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

For some time, I've been trying to comprehend some people's fascination with ultralight 'mechs.

So, I decided to compare an ultralight with a vehicle.




First, I decided on the exact weight. I chose the lightest 'mech available: 10 tons. I created a default bipedal 'mech and tracked vehicle weighing 10 tons each.

Next, speed. Since the ultralight 'mech cannot mount much armor, it must have a high speed to survive. I decided on a speed of 10/15, to be used by both the 'mech and vehicle.

I next decided on the use of XL engines, as normal fusion would be impractical on such small machines.

When the 'mech has maxed-out armor, it has .5 tons of space left over for weaponry, without Endo-Steel (1 ton with). When the vehicle has the same amount of armor (3 tons), it has 2.5 tons available.

The 'mech has a pricetag of just over 1 mil. C-Bills (1,004,869 C-Bills, to be exact). The Vehicle costs 445,958 C-Bills; I could buy two vehicles, each with an additional 2 tons to mount weapons with, for the price of one ultralight 'mech.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 16:09    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2005-08-23 13:26, Warhammer: 3025 wrote:
The 'mech has a pricetag of just over 1 mil. C-Bills (1,004,869 C-Bills, to be exact). The Vehicle costs 445,958 C-Bills; I could buy two vehicles, each with an additional 2 tons to mount weapons with, for the price of one ultralight 'mech.



Not sure what you were trying to prove as it's a well known fact vehicles are generally cheaper than mechs.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 16:34    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2005-08-23 13:26, Warhammer: 3025 wrote:
For some time, I've been trying to comprehend some people's fascination with ultralight 'mechs.

So, I decided to compare an ultralight with a vehicle.

First, I decided on the exact weight. I chose the lightest 'mech available: 10 tons. I created a default bipedal 'mech and tracked vehicle weighing 10 tons each.

Next, speed. Since the ultralight 'mech cannot mount much armor, it must have a high speed to survive. I decided on a speed of 10/15, to be used by both the 'mech and vehicle.

I next decided on the use of XL engines, as normal fusion would be impractical on such small machines.

When the 'mech has maxed-out armor, it has .5 tons of space left over for weaponry, without Endo-Steel (1 ton with). When the vehicle has the same amount of armor (3 tons), it has 2.5 tons available.

The 'mech has a pricetag of just over 1 mil. C-Bills (1,004,869 C-Bills, to be exact). The Vehicle costs 445,958 C-Bills; I could buy two vehicles, each with an additional 2 tons to mount weapons with, for the price of one ultralight 'mech.



First off some of your assumptions are wrong.

The normal Fusion engine works fine for the ultralights, thus the price would be lower since the XL is 2 to 3 times what a normal fusion engine cost. I can email you the stats of FASA approved Ultralights from Star Date magazine as well as a couple from some FASA Update Flyers of the early 90s if you want them.

Second, vehicles do not have the same items as mechs do, no myomer, no acuators etc...so there is going to be some difference there in cost.

And as Chihawk said, vehicles have ALWAYS been cheaper then mechs, not matter what type or weight that is compared.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 17:28    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2005-08-23 16:34, Karagin wrote:

And as Chihawk said, vehicles have ALWAYS been cheaper then mechs, not matter what type or weight that is compared.



Well, i see his post's intetion not being about cost but instead about efficency. Note the title "Cost-Benifit" which openly implies a 2 part comparision. His first comparision is how much each unit costs when compared to a similarly design counterpart. The second comparision is how much benifit each unit gains when compared to a similarly designed counterpart.

So yes, Vehicles will always be cheeper then Mechs; however, only focusing on this one aspect of the post is to do the post injustic as your ignoring the second part, which is benifit.

Even if we factor in a 50 percent decrease in efficency do to vehicle weaknessess by the the rules the results are as thus:

1 ultra light mech as described costs: 1,004,869 C-Bills
2 ultra light treaded vehicles as described costs: 891916 C-Bills [445,958 C-Bills each]

1 ultra light mech as described carries: 0.5t of equipment.
2 ultra light treaded vehicles as described carries: 5t of equipment [2.5t each], but i will use 4t to account for a turret [2t each].

When we add in the half effectiveness modifier for the vehicles, they would combined carry 2t of equipment. I will have you note that this is 4x the amount that the mech unit can carry.

If we use Endo-Steel on the UL Mech: cost 1,005,649 C-Bills with 1t of equipment.

Even with this near negligable cost increase, we still can get vehicles that each carry 2t and offer use a 2t comparision tonnage that is still 2x the tonnage of the Mech.

Overall, the whole post implies that UL Mechs when compared to equivalent vehicles are both more costly and less efficent. However, in order to truely make this conclusion, we would need to make a breakdown annalysis of the 10t and 15t UL Mechs compared to both equally equiped and similarly equiped 10t and 15t treaded vehicles.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 19:40    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

I have a butt load of ultra-light designs. posted on the design forum under the Harley-Davidson name-plate these are IS tech you can also check out my Clan tech designs . The 15 ton Ice Hellion omni-mech the Wombat and the Chiggar both ten ton quads.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 20:48    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

I'd always take the vehicle over the 'Mech when the weight class is that low.

Consider the following as well:

Targets: Mechs tend to be shot at first, as they are often seen as the bigger threat, or are just plain easy to see. Vehicles tend to hide easier.

Utility: Mechs can often do more utilitarian work then vehicles, having hands and such, which is the only real place for a Mech under 20 tons. But I'm oppinionated. Vehicles, unless speciallized, tend to not deal so well here.

Speed: I'm not sure if it was stated, but the type of vehicle changes it's speed. A wheeled scout can move faster than a tracked one, and hover goes even better. Or, they can mount a smaller engine for the same speed, and thus more gear. Granted, they get limited as to where they can go, but sometimes it is nice to escape down the river at full speed.

Usefulness: Generally, I don't even use units this small. Savanah Master and VTOLs excluded, most units under 20 tons not worth it. It I want a scout, I'll take a Locust, or a Stinger. If I want the scout to be able to accomplish something, I'll send a Wolfhound. That's how I am.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 20:59    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

I got afriend who proposed using ultra light mechs to transport and provide LRM fire support for battle armor but I don't recall if we had a chance to try it out.

But half the fun of Battletech is the insanely high number of choices when it comes to what ya use. May not be cost efficent but I figure why not if you can find somebody to try it against.

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PostPosted: 23-Aug-2005 22:27    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Also consider different movement types than just Tracked, they completely change a vehicles benefits. This would be a very very in depth project, and my plate is currently overfull hehe.

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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 05:19    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Or terrains that an UL Mech can traverse versus what a tracked/treaded or Hover vehicle can.

Next, the Manpower issue. What does it cost to have a tech that fixes UL Mechs and/or Vehicles. Do this person do both?

Or the repair parts needed, on hand or accessible to, to keep each up and running at it's peak.




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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 06:15    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

I'd think ultra lights would be fixed by regualr mech technicans. Afterall it's just a small mech.

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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 07:11    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2005-08-23 17:28, Vagabond wrote:
Quote:

On 2005-08-23 16:34, Karagin wrote:

And as Chihawk said, vehicles have ALWAYS been cheaper then mechs, not matter what type or weight that is compared.



Well, i see his post's intetion not being about cost but instead about efficency. Note the title "Cost-Benifit" which openly implies a 2 part comparision. His first comparision is how much each unit costs when compared to a similarly design counterpart. The second comparision is how much benifit each unit gains when compared to a similarly designed counterpart.

So yes, Vehicles will always be cheeper then Mechs; however, only focusing on this one aspect of the post is to do the post injustic as your ignoring the second part, which is benifit.

Even if we factor in a 50 percent decrease in efficency do to vehicle weaknessess by the the rules the results are as thus:

1 ultra light mech as described costs: 1,004,869 C-Bills
2 ultra light treaded vehicles as described costs: 891916 C-Bills [445,958 C-Bills each]

1 ultra light mech as described carries: 0.5t of equipment.
2 ultra light treaded vehicles as described carries: 5t of equipment [2.5t each], but i will use 4t to account for a turret [2t each].

When we add in the half effectiveness modifier for the vehicles, they would combined carry 2t of equipment. I will have you note that this is 4x the amount that the mech unit can carry.

If we use Endo-Steel on the UL Mech: cost 1,005,649 C-Bills with 1t of equipment.

Even with this near negligable cost increase, we still can get vehicles that each carry 2t and offer use a 2t comparision tonnage that is still 2x the tonnage of the Mech.

Overall, the whole post implies that UL Mechs when compared to equivalent vehicles are both more costly and less efficent. However, in order to truely make this conclusion, we would need to make a breakdown annalysis of the 10t and 15t UL Mechs compared to both equally equiped and similarly equiped 10t and 15t treaded vehicles.



First off: thank you, Vagabond, for standing up for me in such an eloquent manner. I doubt I could have defended my own idea as well as you have.


Second: a cost-benefit analysis of 15-ton machines, as Vagabond suggested.


I start with the same parameters as the 10-ton machines, those being 10/15 movement, an XL engine, and max armor.


The 'mech maxes out at 3.5 tons of armor, so that is what the vehicle shall have as well.

The 'mech has 2 tons of space left for equipment (2.5 if we include Endo-Steel structure). On the other hand, the vehicle has 4.5 tons available; however, we shall assume it has a turret, and lower that number to 4 tons.


The 'mech costs 1,824,360 C-Bills, compared to the vehicles' cost of 807,875 C-Bills. Once again, I can purchase two vehicles, each with greater capabilities than the 'mech, for less than I would pay for just a single ultralight.


[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2005-08-24 07:13 ]
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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 11:55    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Why are you going with the XL? Why not keep everything level 1 and then do the comparision?

The XL is going to jack up the price of both the vehicle and the mech far higher then they should be, again that is an old issue of FASA trying to balance the XL with price, and help bias what you are doing against the mech from the start.

http://mordel.net/barandgrill/viewtopic.php?topic=6666&forum=3&0

Check out the above link over to the Apollo Ultralight and then check out the Mite. Both have nothing but level 1 tech and they are BOTH as cheap if not cheaper then your vehicles.

Again you are also forgetting vehicles don't pay for thing like mymoer since they don't have appendages to move or heat sinks unless they have engery weapons but then most folks put fusions engines on the vehicles.

If you want a fairer comparison then go with an ICE engine in the vehicle and you will see a big difference in what you can or can't mount, that would give you the same or close to the same amount tonnage to work with.


[ This Message was edited by: Karagin on 2005-08-24 12:10 ]
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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 13:05    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

To put an ICE engine in the vehicle would create an imbalance (that's the best word I could come up with right now) in the empirical comparison.

To truly be objective, both subjects must be exactly the same in as many aspects as possible. Only then can the results be worth reviewing; otherwise personal opinion, bias, or other factors can color the result.



However, I shall take your challenge and compare the two without XL engines.


All other factors are the same: 10/15 speed, max armor.

The 10-ton ultralight has zero tons available. indeed, it does not even have max armor (coming up 1 ton short, at 2 tons). To receive max armor, the speed must be lowered to 7/11, and even then there is no room for weapons or equipment. To accommodate weapons or equipment, the speed must be lowered even further, to 6/9 or lower. The Ultralight is now easy pickings for whatever enemy forces happen to attack it: it does not have the armor capacity to withstand attack for long, does not have the speed to outrun the enemy, and does not have the maneuverability to avoid being hit (by moving fast enough to increase the To Hit against it by a significant amount). The 10-ton Ultralight costs 743,160 C-Bills, moving 6/9 and with .5 tons free for equipment.

The 15-ton Ultralight has the same problem at 10/15 movement: no room for weapons/equipment, and less than maximum armor. The 15-ton 'mech is better than the 10-ton, however, in the fact that the speed need only be lowered to 9/14 to max out armor protection and free room for equipment (even though there is only .5 tons free). The 15-ton Ultralight costs 1,268,910 C-Bills, moving 9/14 and with .5 tons free for equipment.



The 10-ton tracked vehicle has 1 ton available when moving 10/15. If the speed is lowered to match the 10-ton Ultralight's maximum allowable speed (the highest speed at which it has both maximum armor and space for equipment) of 6/9, the vehicle has 3 tons available. If we add a turret, the vehicle has 2.5 tons available. The 10-ton vehicle costs 93,500 C-Bills, moving 6/9 and with 3 tons free for equipment.

The 15-ton tracked vehicle has .5 tons of space available when moving 10/15. If the speed is lowered to match the 15-ton Ultralight's maximum allowable speed (the highest speed at which it has both maximum armor and space for equipment) of 9/14, the vehicle has 2 tons available. If we add a turret, vehicle has 1.5 tons available. The 15-ton vehicle costs 224,250 C-Bills, moving 9/14 and with 2 tons free for equipment.



With this hard data it is clear that, while vehicles of any type are almost always cheaper than the 'mechs of the same weight (as was pointed out), in the case of Ultralights, they are also much more cost-effective: meaning that for a lower price, you get capabilities that not only equal, but EXCEED the Ultralight.



DISCLAIMER
I've tried to be completely objective, relying on simple mathematics and drawing conclusions from that.


[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2005-08-24 13:06 ]
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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 13:40    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2005-08-24 13:05, Warhammer: 3025 wrote:
To truly be objective, both subjects must be exactly the same in as many aspects as possible. Only then can the results be worth reviewing; otherwise personal opinion, bias, or other factors can color the result.



But what's the basis for this comparison? Should the UL mech and vehicle be useful scouts? Sentry units? Infantry support?

There's still places a mech can go that vehicles can't, and that's the only real reason to build these light zipping bugs. No ground vehicle may enter heavy woods or move more than one elevation level up/down. A hovercraft may be faster than the mech, but it's stumped by all woods hexes. Wheeled vehicles are too, and they're also stopped by rubble or rough hexes.

The only basic terrain where a hovercraft shows a marked advantage over mechs is water, as the vehicle can just drive straight out over the surface. Just hope your engine doesn't shut down.

So what are these machines supposed to do that you can proclaim one more cost efficient than the other?

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PostPosted: 24-Aug-2005 15:50    Post subject: RE: A cost-benefit analysis Reply to topic Reply with quote

Vehicles die very quickly in Batteletech. Hit them with a flamer and watch them go "BOOM!".

There's a reason why they're cheaper.

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